Saturday, August 8, 2020

Equal Time: What is a Death?

Note: This post went up after it already made the rounds on the media's FB pages.  It's out there.  Having said that, the coroner is an RN, not a doctor.  Keep that in mind when reading the post. 

Social media erupted again this morning when the Desoto County Coroner accused the Mississippi State Department of Health of forcing him to state the cause of death as Covid-19 even if it was not so if the deceased was infected with the virus.  Desoto County Coroner and Medical Examiner Josh Pounders (R.N.) stated on Facebook:


This post is not to take away the importance of any life or life lost during the "covid 19" pandemic. I sympathize with any family who has lost a loved one however I also believe its important to report facts to the public.

In the month of July 2020 the Desoto County Coroners office completed reports and in the process of filing 144 deaths with the state of Mississippi. This is an average month in Desoto County

I normally dont publicly post specifics of the deaths each month out of respect for family privacy and Hippa laws however I see on a daily bases in the last few months many facebook google experts and politicians with politically driven agendas driven by money reporting information that is twisted and false to the public.

These are your Facts for Desoto County in the month of July2020.

deaths and cause of death
cancer 30
congestive heart failure,heart disease,lung diseases,vascular disease,stroke, or the combination of more that one of these. 67
cirrhosis of liver 1
Infection or sepsis from a source of infection such as Pneumonia 18
accidental trauma who passed away inside of Desoto County before reaching a hospital 0
Renal disease 2
Drug overdose 1
Possible drug related deaths pending toxicology results from Ms Medical examiners office 5
Gastrointestinal complications (ex bowel obstruction, Gastrointestinal hemorrhage) 4
Alzheimers disease,Dementia,Parkinsons disease 16
Homicide 0

Total deaths investigated by Desoto County Coroners office in the month of July 2020= 144

These numbers include hospice deaths,hospital deaths,unexpected deaths in the home, and deaths of people who died before reaching a hospital to get medical care.

Deaths of people who had a + covid test result prior to or at the time of their death but does not necessarily mean covid was their primary cause of death 24 this number is included in the total number of deaths(144) above. All of the individuals who have died that were + for covid at some point have all had major medical problems prior to contracting covid. most of these deaths have been of people over the age of 75. Many of these covid deaths are of people who were on hospice care with a terminal diagnoses. some of these deaths the person was + for covid but had no symptoms of covid prior to death but died of other medical problems. The department of health demands that these deaths be called a covid death and reports them as only that without reporting that many of them were terminal prior to a +test.

In my opininon this has lead to unnecessary fear in the public and caused stress to the citizens in this county and across this country.

The one thing that is drastically up is cardio/pulmonary deaths. I attribute this to 2 things: 1. stress of the covid 19 pandemic. stress causes high blood pressure and high blood pressure with heart disease or vascular disease cause heart attacks and strokes. (KF: Patients are probably not going to the doctor as much for blood pressure and medication checks as they did before the pandemic.)


2. people see the false information politicians report to the world on the internet. They see what the news reporter who has no knowledge of what he is reporting broadcast to the world. They become scared to leave home and go to the hospitals for fear of a virus when they need medical care for a more serious condition and ultimately have a cardiac arrest at home.

Although anytime life is lost I consider it a tragedy and sympathize with that family. I however believe that public fear and the government reporting only partial information is misleading and should not be. Covid is real and we should protect the elderly who are frail however life for the average healthy majority must go on so that chaos in our community and across the country does not escalate and ultimately cause more deaths than any virus ever would.

thank you for your time

and the opportunity to serve 

32 comments:

Anonymous said...

I have opined earlier (see August 6th and before) and this report conforms my opinion that deaths other than those due to the virus are being classified as deaths due to covid. From one point of view the reason could be simple: confusion as per death certificates in rural areas where the cause maybe due to flu or other
conflicting diagnoses such as "pneumonia". The cause may be political where dangers are overemphasized to bias of one political party in an effort to influence the vore or the cause may be financial. Simply put, institutions, such as hospitals, medical groups, or state or federal health organizations receive greater remuneration for a covid death. This includes the CDC where emphasis on the health dangers means greater funding for next year.

I have said my piece. The situation is a mess. Bye-bye.

Anonymous said...

This has been known and this fact has been denied by many riders of the Covid train. Experts, line up.

Anonymous said...

Ok. That's 1 coroner. What do the other 81 in this state say?

Anonymous said...

This guy is a Coroner (only a HS degree required) and is not a doctor (medical examiner). WTF. Who would take his opinion on things? And Daddy was the coroner, too!? WTF is in the water in Desoto? Is Coroner the family trade there? "Good enough fer me, Bubba!"

Folks, I've been in autopsies with folks who are legendary fools, drug addicted, liars who will do ANYTHING for a "second opinion" fee, but at least they had a MEDICAL DEGREE and a license. There was some basis to assert they knew something.

Folks, a medical examiner is a doctor who performs autopsies in suspicious deaths. A coroner is an elected or appointed official who is not required to have a medical background.

But he's going to post on FB with a million fake facts, misspellings, and typos but he thinks HE's an expert?

What, a one week Death Investigation course at a Community College? Your CV, Josh? Or did Daddy just pass on the GubMint paycheck job?

Good Lord, folks. Equal Time to non Doctors, non epidemiologists, non researchers?

That's great. What, were the MMA Bloggers fresh out of ideas? Could we not get a hold of Kim Kardashian for her scientific opinion, equally weighted with a doctor's?

Anonymous said...

This guy is/was an RN, but from what I understand he has very little knowledge or experience with the medical aspects of viruses, and essentially none about SARS-CoV-2 or COVID-19. Two glaring, over-arching pieces of evidence to his complete lack of understanding is his fixation on a binary outcome, i.e., "recovery" or death, and his posting of supposed "absolutes" on Facebook.

The growing data clearly and inarguably shows that some significant percentage (50% or more) of all COVID-19 infections result in effects that last at least 60-90 days past either the end of symptoms or the 14-day "presumed recovered" date (and note, "presumed recovered" means "no longer infectious" not "100% return to pre-infection status"). There is very little data past about 6 months, other than it is known that a large percentage of those infected are not "symptom-free" immediately upon being no longer infectious. Obviously, we still do not have any data for 1-plus years out nor do we have much meaningful data on reinfection, immunity if any and for what period, etc.

The bottom line is this is just another in a growing line of "experts" who do not have a clue about any of this but refuse to let that stand in the way of publicizing their lack of knowledge about any of it. I would not rely upon such people or their "information," but I've no doubt those seeking to firm up their own confirmation biases will treat him like the foremost expert on all things COVID. Many of those people will join another growing line - the line of people (or their surviving family and friends) who now say, "If only they/we had listened to actual experts..."

Anonymous said...

What is death?
Fear is the mind killer. They say a brave man dies only once but a coward dies a thousand deaths. And I'm also fond of the French La petite mort

But this is an existential question as multifaceted as the meaning of life.

Anonymous said...

It’s all about the reimbursement folks...follow the money

Anonymous said...

Let me be another that calls bulls**t on this post. Forget the idiotic comment from 5:1t, which is totally a lie - fake news - and nothing but what he is repeating from Brietbart or some other social media site. This coroner, which may have been an RN is missing on many point - some of which were pointed out by 5:00 above.

1) Coroners have nothing to do with deaths that occur in a hospital, yet this coroner is opining on those deaths and including them in his so-called "analysis".

2) Hate to tell this esteemed coroner, but people do not die from Alzheimers 'disease, dementia or Parkinsons disease - yet this esteemed medical expert attributes over 10% of the reported deaths to these medical issues. Maybe he needs to look further and see what caused these 16 souls to die - it was not what he attributes their passing to and if that's what he wrote on their death certificates it would be a good case for changing the statute and eliminating this stupid elected position.

Of those that had heart failure, etc -assuming that they also tested positive for COVID. The question is which one caused their death. I have had heart disease but plan to live several more years, or maybe decades. If I test positive for COVID, and should die before the end of the year, is this esteemed elected official who may be a RN or some other 'expert' gong to claim that this is an over-reporting of my death as being caused by COVID? Hell no - just because I have another condition does not automatically mean that I am at death's door and just looking for someone to open it for me.

His "facts" for Desoto County have about as much relevance as does the office of coroner in any county - granted, one does have to have a high school degree to run for the office, but in most cases who else wants the damn job. Glad he knows how to post on Facebook, but be damned if I understand why anyone intelligent (which I normally give KF credit for being) would bother to pay any attention to it.

Anonymous said...

Great 5:14. This is why so many of our experts on this site are going fucking nuts. They and only they have the answers. They don't agree that person has absolutely no knowledge or reason to exist. A Pox upon thee, a Pox. Or an asteroid, whatever gets us first, I have no particular preference.

GM said...

Everyone one can run down to Lowes or Home Depot, (buy some pre cut wooden templates) and then paint the signs to give the impression one is a qualified "undertaker".

Even in a 2020 Mississippi, the word "undertaker" is more appealing to many of the low information crowd instead of "funeral director" .

Just say'n.

Anonymous said...

So, if I fail to buckle my seat belt and head home on I55 where I meet a truck head on going the wrong direction with the headlights out driven by a drunk will my family be told they have no legal entitlement to sue the drunk because I died due to not buckling the belt?

Anonymous said...

Never fear, the JJ messenger shooters are here!

Anonymous said...

A person can have a serious underlying condition and be run over by a car or shot with a gun. It was not the underlying condition that killed them. This is the same garbage they have been putting out about Herman Cain, he had cancer at one time but was healthy and well when he went to the Trump rally where he became infected with Covid-19 and died weeks later in ICU.

Anonymous said...

@5:42 just some clarification:
Coroners do indeed have authority in certain hospital deaths. If the death occurs in a hospital within 24 hours of admittance, it must be reported to the coroner who will them determine jurisdiction over determining the cause of death.
If the death in a hospital was the direct result (or ultimately indirect result) of a fall, the death must be reported to the coroner for investigation who then has authority to rule on the cause of death. Furthermore, if a death occurs in the hospital as the result of trauma from an accident or assault (homicide) or from any suspicious circumstances, jurisdiction over determining the cause of Death falls to the coroner regardless if the patient/victim dies in one day or after two months of being treated in the hospital.

Now, is this type of assignable jurisdiction f-d up? Absolutely. No medical degree. It’s absurd. But there are decent coroners out there that will indeed consult with the physician(s) managing patient care to side with or agree with the cause of death. And those same coroners know when they need to defer cases for further scrutiny to a Medical Examiner (forensic pathologist MD) however Mississippi sucks in this vital specialty area as well.

Anonymous said...

The fact that he thinks HIPAA is “HIPPA” should be a red flag. You may say “just a typo,” but I say evidence (not conclusive of course) of a lack of rudimentary knowledge or basis for reliable statements.

Anonymous said...

@5:14
The meaning of life is to get saved and die and go to heaven. Everything else is avoiding the temptations of Lucifer.

Anonymous said...

What a brave and good man for exposing this additional example of the dishonesty that seems to permeate this "crisis". Similar stories from Florida, the UK, etc.

Pappy Odaniel said...

This is a state where we somehow figured out how to take TANF benefits away from impoverished families and launder into the hands of million dollar former athletes and jug-head local “celebrities”...you think we’re going to miss out on some COVID cash...you better keep a close watch on your Memaw’s ass cause Mississippi gonna cash that check.

Anonymous said...

So release all the specifics of each and every Covid death and we'll see what the truth actually is.

Anonymous said...

I really don’t care what the DeSoto county coroner data may say but I damn sure don’t care wtf all these Kens n Karen’s on here say bashing the guy. Bunch of know-it-all’s!! I opine where y’all’s credentials are? Oh that’s right, anonymous. Put y’all’s names n jobs out with ur intelligent bitchin like this guy did or quit whining about him.

Anonymous said...

The first poster mentions 'political' as a cause of death. Unless he's talking about Anwar Sadat, I'd like to know more about that.

Anonymous said...

In Florida the cases have been under reported. There are studies out there that prove more people have died than normal in the last 6 months. If you don't believe me just ask Google or Alexa.

Anonymous said...

6:41 - Averages, normal and abnormal are not meaningful in a purely analytical discussion. In determining why 12 rabbits died on my farm this month, it's meaningless that only 3 died the prior month.

And if you're about to suggest the reason for the increased number of deaths in Florida 'simply must be' due to Covid, you're off in the la la land of logical fallacy.

Anonymous said...

Holy moley!!! Who would have thought that the coroner from little ol' DeSoto county would have figured out the truth about the virus? A he's a just an ol' good'un too! That's them Mississippi smarts, y'all! Why have we been listening to these idiots who are trained in public health and spent a career working in the field? I know who I'm listening to from here on out!

Anonymous said...

There is no fucking way this state is as low on the worse states in America poll. We out do any well established state with IHL located in them with the above listed credentialed lettered experts. I recommend that the folks who have been there done that, run for these offices so us poor dumb as shit folks can be properly taken care of.

Anonymous said...

From Michael Osterholm (several posts on him here on JJ, esp. about masks) and Neel Kashkari (President of the Minn. FRB):

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/07/opinion/coronavirus-lockdown-unemployment-death.html

It is now probably about the only way to stop this. It is mind-boggling to sensible people that what could have been stopped by just being reasonable about masks and distancing back in February or March is now a health care disaster in August. It should be, but probably won't be, a wake-up call to those who have bleated about "their rights." I don't know what to suggest for the willfully-ignorant, but I suspect it will get much worse, and much more draconian, before it gets better and less so.

Anonymous said...

1:05 am right on.

Anonymous said...

Thank you @4:51pm,5:00pm,5:42pm,6:21 and 6:49pm. Your comments are edifying and verifiable.

1:05am I post anonymously here because some of those commenting show clinical signs of thought patterns associated with the dangerous mental illnesses. Posting my credentials with my name would make me easy to find in a state this small. I hope it's your job keeping you up so late.

Pappy O'Daniel, as usual, your comment is based on sweeping generalities. Yes, Mississippi has long had a problem with corruption.

But, haven't a clue how billing or much of anything else is done or not done in Mississippi.That's why you never can offer evidence or anything verifiable.

You don't even seem to understand that this virus has placed a financial burden that was unforeseen and that had not been in any budget...not any of our agencies or even personal budgets. To do anything other than holler like a stuck pig, knowledge and details matter. You provide neither.

Anonymous said...

I took Mr. Ponders opining apart on Facebook yesterday, based solely on his glaring lack of knowledge and that the few " facts" he provides are irrelevant.

He serves ONE county in Mississippi. I'm glad the deaths are lower the day he wrote than in other counties.

Again,it's the perfect example of anecdotal information( his experience only) and NO scientist and NO medical person should ever rely on anecdotal information without, at least, searching to see if actual solid research has been done. Going on your experience and instinct is fine in the absence of more reliable, available information.

Since ANYONE in medicine at any level should know the difference between anecdotal information and empirical information as well as most high school graduates who took a science course ever, I can only assume political propaganda has caused some with degrees to be deliberately ignorant and becoming " believers" ( because they so want it to be true) instead of rational, logical members of the scientific community.

And when, like Mr. Pounder, they publicly opine without logic or factual basis, they have lost credibility among those not blinded by partisanship.

Empirical thinking and logic and objectivity are essential to problem solving, and that certainly applies to diagnosis. I don't want a medical doctor or any nurse who doesn't have those skills or doesn't stay current should I have an unexpected or unusual medical problem arise.

That they would risk their professional credibility for a politician or party, also show a terrible lack of judgement and inability to base their support of something solid that can be easily articulated.

Anonymous said...

You obviously didn't ask Google.

Anonymous said...

I'm guessing meth, and no sleep in 4 days.

Anonymous said...

Uh-oh. It looks like Josh may have a situation on his hands. I've heard at least a couple of things about how he may have "oops'ed" on one or more COVID-19 deaths. I have no personal knowledge whether he simply signed off on whatever a doctor told him or if he made the declaration on his own, but either way, he wanted to the DeSoto County Coroner and if he signed his name it's on him. In fact, I have no personal knowledge of _ANY_ of circumstances but if he..."spun"...anything on a death cert, "oops" won't begin to cover it.



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