Tuesday, October 5, 2021

Equal Time: The Shot v. Natural Immunity

 Dr. Stacey Klutts addressed the question of whether natural immunity was superior to the covid-19 vaccine in this August 15 Facebook post.  He is the Chief of Pathology and Laboratory Service for the Central Iowa VA Healthcare System.  He is also a Clinical Associate Professor of Pathology and Clinical Microbiology at the University of Iowa. 

Hello everyone! In the course of the overwhelming response to my post and column, I have had one question come up over and over again. Summarizing the various versions, it is basically this:
"If I had COVID-19 previously, why do I need to get vaccinated? Doesn't my natural immunity cover me?"
This is a very understandable question with a fairly complicated answer. I'll do my best to keep it simple and leave the more detailed, complex explanations to others in links.
First, I want to clearly acknowledge that natural immunity after an infection with SARS-CoV-2 is not nothing. You are indeed much better protected against severe outcomes than if you have never seen the virus at all. However, that's not really the question. The question really is this:
"Am I protected as well as those who were never infected but have been fully vaccinated and do I significantly benefit from getting vaccinated myself, specifically in regards to the Delta variant?"
The short answer (that isn't that short): The sum of the data over a number of publications directed at that question suggest that you are not quite as protected as the vaccinated person and that you do benefit from vaccine. However, this is mostly being extrapolated from what we know about the vaccine in relationship to other variants. We don't yet have much data specifically with the Delta variant and this question, but I think one can pretty safely assume that the data from the other variants is relevant.
One publication addressing the question (again not on Delta, specifically) is very new and can found here: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7032e1.htm This study showed about a 2-fold protective effect for reinfection in those that had been vaccinated after a previous infection as compared to those who just had a previous infection alone.
The other publications are summarized nicely by Katelyn Jetalina on Your Local Epidemiologist (or YLE) here: https://yourlocalepidemiologist.substack.com/.../natural... As promised, I would leave the more complex explanations to others. I will not reiterate her nice summary, but I strongly encourage you to read it if you are so interested. Gist: The antibody response to the vaccine is more coordinated and effective overall in producing neutralizing antibodies as compared to a single previous infection.
So, if I'm advising my family member or best friend on this question, I'd tell them that they are very likely going to have to walk through a wall of fire here soon and that there is a full set of firefighter turnout gear hanging on the wall. They can risk the fire walk with the incomplete gear they are wearing, but I'd advise to just go ahead and put on the full suit that will almost certainly get them through the flames safely. Indeed, I have good friends who had COVID back in the fall and have now been vaccinated, at least somewhat secondary to my advice.
Do I think that we need more data to fully address this question, at least with the Delta variant? That's also a yes. I'm personally curious as to why a previously infected person doesn't have better throat mucosal immunity for blocking the virus from binding. That's a tough question to get at, as measuring mucosal IgA isn't easy, but the protection after a single infection doesn't appear to be great.
So, the story will continue to evolve. That's science. Fortunately, many elements of the overall story are a 'Choose Your Own Adventure' book, and we really can pick a path that leads to more happy endings. Please strongly consider getting vaccinated if you have not yet done so.
Stay safe, stay well, everyone!

34 comments:

Anonymous said...

I have two vaccine shots and will be getting booster. I have spoken to many MS ‘s who have gotten COVID after vaccines. They basically had a bad head cold or two days. I do not want to be hospitalized, or on breathing apparatus, (as many without vacs are) and have underlying health condition. A virus is not political, has no agenda other than to infect a human. Please think about it MS.

Anonymous said...

Science, schmience.

Pass the natty lite and the Covid hoax please. Election was rigged.

Anonymous said...

Well, Mr. Natural Immunity is a fixin' to pitch a fit about this one. He's been blathering for 6 months about how we all need to just run out, French kiss a Covid carrier, and lick the toilets at motels on Hwy 80 to "build up our immune systems." He shore won't be happy.

Anonymous said...

All the pitch and hype on getting the shot and I have not seen ANY data on the long term effect of this experimental shot. I have had my blood tested lately and I have a very high natural antibody from having the Chinese Virus in November of last. I would like for anybody that had the shot in November of last year to have their blood tested to see their immunity level, if any. Looks like our gov would have studied natural vs the shot. Huuuum

Anonymous said...

So I;m guessing there is some guessing going on.

Anonymous said...

MS Against Mandates
Rally Sat at Smith Park
12 to 6

Anonymous said...

What mandates are in Mississippi? Just the Ole Miss medical school?

Anonymous said...


On Nov 21st my Mom & I tested positive for Covid. The following week my Dad, brother & sister-in-law tested positive.
I was the only one with every symptom you can imagine (my fever got up to 106) but I was to afraid to go to the hospital.
My Mom (with no symptoms) had a pulmonary embolism on Dec1st, twenty-three days before her Christmas Eve birthday.
So judge me all you'd like, I'm not getting the vaccine.

Anonymous said...

Natural for 2000 Alex😳

Anonymous said...

Lost a friend recently to COVID. He was young… unfortunately not vaxxed. Yes, he had some underlying conditions, but he was a beast of a man. Think of your kids folks. I know he was in his final moments.

S,W.A.G. said...

Why couldn't the man just say, "We don't know".

Anonymous said...

@11:14pm - Sorry about your mom, but are you sure you didn’t have a stroke? 106 fever can cause brain damage. Because I’m not sure how anything you said relates, good or bad, to the vaccine. Yet you said you’re not getting it. I’m confused. Are you relating the Covid PE your mom died from to the vaccine? (Which wasn’t available at the time). I’m trying really hard to figure this out.

Anonymous said...

I do not get this-yeah but he had underlying conditions as a distinction to support being unvaccinated..

If you know you have “underlying conditions“ then get vaccinated to avoid a covid death.

If you do not know whether you have “underlying conditions” then being unvaccinated and risking a covid death seems stupid.

Anonymous said...

Great Post KF!

My personal experience: I tested positive on July 23, 2021, and was admitted to St. D's in Jackson on August 1 with COVID-induced viral pneumonia. I was a sick dude, and ended up losing 22 lbs in just over 14 days (mostly from dehydration). When I was being examined by the hospitalist for discharge from the hospital, I was informed that they were admitting both vaccinated and unvaccinated patients to the extent that they had beds available and their conditions warranted hospitalization. I was NOT vaccinated. Though I'm sure I have plenty of antibodies, I WILL get the vaccine around late November.

Everyone has to make their own decision about the vaccine. My bout with COVID changed my mind.

I'm glad to see more and more data coming out that gives each of us more information so that we can make a more informed decision about vaccines.

My observations about COVID and the various medical treatments: The doctors still don't have a good handle on how to treat this. I received different information in the medical clinic than I received in the hospital concerning the infusion and concerning treatment of the virus. Our doctors and nurses are trying to play catch-up on the unknown and ever-changing COVID variants.

Anonymous said...

There is more data out there than most will admit. Washington University in St. Louis has a study that shows natural immunity is sufficient and can be life-long. It's a bone marrow study not blood tests. You can find it on the internet. NIH is quoted on their own website as saying that "we hope we see a response from vaccinations that we have seen in those who have had a mild case.." so they even know.

Then there are people like Singing River Health on the coast. They released information that said of all the people they had tested and that tested positive, only 1% were reinfections (less than breakthrough infections of 10%). Then they state that of all the people that have been hospitalized in any of their hospitals, only one....yes, one...was a reinfection. Not one percent...one person..

So where is UMMC's data, Baptist, St. D? How many reinfections have been hospitalized in their system. You and I both know that if natural immunity was not sufficient to prevent hospitalization, they would have that statistic plastered everywhere like they do all other statistics on Covid. Dobbs would have a tracker on his website like he does everything else. If they did, that would encourage those who believe natural immunity is sufficient to maybe get vaccinated. But they don't provide those statistics. Seriously ask yourself why they don't. They know the data...but don't provide it. Why is that?

Anonymous said...

Remove Fauci and the whole country within days will become saner and more calm.

Anonymous said...

11:01 : You kidding ? Hinds County has a vaccine mandate they haven't enforced.....yet. If they do essential employees to the everyday works will leave.This includes law enforcement. If you think it's a sh!it show now ? Wait until these employees are replaced by a niece or nephew of whoever. And this looks as if this boils down to 22 million in funds they can't spend unless they follow federal guidelines(vaccine mandates or no money). Same with Hinds County Schools.

Anonymous said...

@8:45 - you could put a muzzle on a couple Republican extremists and get even better results.

Anonymous said...

9:47 : Ok, name one. Fauci thinks he's God and Don Lemon backs that assertion. That is how fugged up this country is right now. Anthony Fauci along with some very rich peoples money created this virus !

Anonymous said...

... put a muzzle on a couple Republican extremists and get even better results.

Who? Name them.

Anonymous said...

Sooo
Do we follow this guys science, or someone who isn’t a proven liar?

“ BREAKING: NIH Director Francis Collins Resigns After Documents Reveal He Lied About His Involvement with Gain-of-Function Research in Wuhan Lab”

Anonymous said...

12:18 : Tony "The God" Fauci decides for many that comment here.

Anonymous said...

8:45: I suspect you and your ilk were crazy long before COVID, so I doubt removing Fauci will have much beneficial effect. You'll just move on to your next obsession.

Anonymous said...

Why is it that people who value their constitutional rights are the ones who are labeled "crazies", "extremists", etc.?

Asking for a friend.

Anonymous said...

Ivermectin solves all problems.

Anonymous said...

KF - you could make a fortune selling tin foil hats to most of your regular readers.

Anonymous said...

2:59 : Kissing ass of the site owner much ?

Anonymous said...

Most dysfunctional pandemic ever.
The fusion of Politics and Medicine was abysmal.
Do not recommend.

2 stars, said this Yelp reviewer

Anonymous said...

Meanwhile....
"Vaccine experts advise the White House to ABANDON its plan to provide Covid booster shots to all Americans in yet another setback for the Biden administration's rollout
On September 27, outside advisors had a call with federal officials where they advised the White House to drop plans to give all Americans vaccine boosters
Dr Anthony Fauci was on the call, and pushed back against the advice from the outsiders (Imagine That!)
The White House unveiled plans for booster shots in late August, but opposition from regulators and experts have become road blocks
The Pfizer booster is currently available to all Americans aged 65 or older or who have a condition or job that puts them at serious risk from the virus
Some advisors to the CDC and FDA oppose universally available boosters as limited evidence is available that they are needed ""

Anonymous said...

Can anyone tell me what the current reinfection rate is?

Specifically for a Covid recovered, unvaccinated person.

Thank you very much!

lotsa samrt people in mississippi make it what it is said...

People wanting 'data on long term effects of vaccine' are likely the same people who:

! Didn't think science had proved smoking was linked to cancer

!! Thought wearing seat belts would kill lots of people - unconscious people after an accident and either car sinking in a lake or car on fire

!!! Thought airbags would injure and kill more people than they would save

!!!! Thought paint was way better when in still had lead in it. Gasoline too!


Anonymous said...

76% of September Vermont Covid-19 deaths are vax breakthroughs

Anonymous said...

@4:53. Thanks for spreading truth. All the deniers can check out Dr. Peter McCullough, Dr Jane Ruby, Dr Robert Malone and many others. Do your research. YOU can still get it, YOU can still spread it. The lie about 'not getting as sick or hospitalized' is easy to see when you look at Vermont data. Check out Israel and Gibraltar data ... the vaxxed are spreading it. Y'all have fun with that.

Anonymous said...

9:20....they will not give you that information because....well, ask them. If it supported the shot you know it would be plastered everywhere. but it's a secret and you have to wonder why.



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Trollfest '09

Trollfest '07 was such a success that Jackson Jambalaya will once again host Trollfest '09. Catch this great event which will leave NE Jackson & Fondren in flames. Othor Cain and his band, The Black Power Structure headline the night while Sonjay Poontang returns for an encore performance. Former Frank Melton bodyguard Marcus Wright makes his premier appearance at Trollfest singing "I'm a Sweet Transvestite" from "The Rocky Horror Picture Show." Kamikaze will sing his new hit, “How I sold out to da Man.” Robbie Bell again performs: “Mamas, don't let your babies grow up to be Bells” and “Any friend of Ed Peters is a friend of mine”. After the show, Ms. Bell will autograph copies of her mug shot photos. In a salute to “Dancing with the Stars”, Ms. Bell and Hinds County District Attorney Robert Smith will dance the Wango Tango.

Wrestling returns, except this time it will be a Battle Royal with Othor Cain, Ben Allen, Kim Wade, Haley Fisackerly, Alan Lange, and “Big Cat” Donna Ladd all in the ring at the same time. The Battle Royal will be in a steel cage, no time limit, no referee, and the losers must leave town. Marshand Crisler will be the honorary referee (as it gives him a title without actually having to do anything).


Meet KIM Waaaaaade at the Entergy Tent. For five pesos, Kim will sell you a chance to win a deed to a crack house on Ridgeway Street stuffed in the Howard Industries pinata. Don't worry if the pinata is beaten to shreds, as Mr. Wade has Jose, Emmanuel, and Carlos, all illegal immigrants, available as replacements for the it. Upon leaving the Entergy tent, fig leaves will be available in case Entergy literally takes everything you have as part of its Trollfest ticket price adjustment charge.

Donna Ladd of The Jackson Free Press will give several classes on learning how to write. Smearing, writing without factchecking, and reporting only one side of a story will be covered. A donation to pay their taxes will be accepted and she will be signing copies of their former federal tax liens. Ms. Ladd will give a dramatic reading of her two award-winning essays (They received The Jackson Free Press "Best Of" awards.) "Why everything is always about me" and "Why I cover murders better than anyone else in Jackson".

In the spirit of helping those who are less fortunate, Trollfest '09 adopts a cause for which a portion of the proceeds and donations will be donated: Keeping Frank Melton in his home. The “Keep Frank Melton From Being Homeless” booth will sell chances for five dollars to pin the tail on the jackass. John Reeves has graciously volunteered to be the jackass for this honorable excursion into saving Frank's ass. What's an ass between two friends after all? If Mr. Reeves is unable to um, perform, Speaker Billy McCoy has also volunteered as when the word “jackass” was mentioned he immediately ran as fast as he could to sign up.


In order to help clean up the legal profession, Adam Kilgore of the Mississippi Bar will be giving away free, round-trip plane tickets to the North Pole where they keep their bar complaint forms (which are NOT available online). If you don't want to go to the North Pole, you can enjoy Brant Brantley's (of the Mississippi Commission on Judicial Performance) free guided tours of the quicksand field over by High Street where all complaints against judges disappear. If for some reason you are unable to control yourself, never fear; Judge Houston Patton will operate his jail where no lawyers are needed or allowed as you just sit there for minutes... hours.... months...years until he decides he is tired of you sitting in his jail. Do not think Judge Patton is a bad judge however as he plans to serve free Mad Dog 20/20 to all inmates.

Trollfest '09 is a pet-friendly event as well. Feel free to bring your dog with you and do not worry if your pet gets hungry, as employees of the Jackson Zoo will be on hand to provide some of their animals as food when it gets to be feeding time for your little loved one.

Relax at the Fox News Tent. Since there are only three blonde reporters in Jackson (being blonde is a requirement for working at Fox News), Megan and Kathryn from WAPT and Wendy from WLBT will be on loan to Fox. To gain admittance to the VIP section, bring either your Republican Party ID card or a Rebel Flag. Bringing both and a torn-up Obama yard sign will entitle you to free drinks served by Megan, Wendy, and Kathryn. Get your tickets now. Since this is an event for trolls, no ID is required. Just bring the hate. Bring the family, Trollfest '09 is for EVERYONE!!!

This is definitely a Beaver production.


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Trollfest '07

Jackson Jambalaya is the home of Trollfest '07. Catch this great event which promises to leave NE Jackson & Fondren in flames. Sonjay Poontang and his band headline the night with a special steel cage, no time limit "loser must leave town" bout between Alan Lange and "Big Cat"Donna Ladd following afterwards. Kamikaze will perform his new song F*** Bush, he's still a _____. Did I mention there was no referee? Dr. Heddy Matthias and Lori Gregory will face off in the undercard dueling with dangling participles and other um, devices. Robbie Bell will perform Her two latest songs: My Best Friends are in the Media and Mama's, Don't Let Your Babies Grow up to be George Bell. Sid Salter of The Clarion-Ledger will host "Pin the Tail on the Trial Lawyer", sponsored by State Farm.

There will be a hugging booth where in exchange for your young son, Frank Melton will give you a loooong hug. Trollfest will have a dunking booth where Muhammed the terrorist will curse you to Allah as you try to hit a target that will drop him into a vat of pig grease. However, in the true spirit of Separate But Equal, Don Imus and someone from NE Jackson will also sit in the dunking booth for an equal amount of time. Tom Head will give a reading for two hours on why he can't figure out who the hell he is. Cliff Cargill will give lessons with his .80 caliber desert eagle, using Frank Melton photos as targets. Tackleberry will be on hand for an autograph session. KIM Waaaaaade will be passing out free titles and deeds to crackhouses formerly owned by The Wood Street Players.

If you get tired come relax at the Fox News Tent. To gain admittance to the VIP section, bring either your Republican Party ID card or a Rebel Flag. Bringing both will entitle you to free drinks.Get your tickets now. Since this is an event for trolls, no ID is required, just bring the hate. Bring the family, Trollfest '07 is for EVERYONE!!!

This is definitely a Beaver production.

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