Should Mississippi College continue to operate a law school? The question was asked in a column posted by attorney Ken Walley on the Mississippi Litigation Review website. It is no understatement to say the law school is facing its share of challenges right now. Mr. Walley wrote:
Dean Rosenbatt retired at the right time. The collapse in demand for law degrees is hitting Mississippi College hard. 2011 saw MC’s last big class: 214 students. Then, reforms pushed by the watchdog group Law School Transparency and negative media attention gave college students the picture of the job market that law grads already knew. As applications fell, MC shrank the 1L class size by 55 students and maintained quality. That is, until 2014, when the bottom fell out.. (Click on link to see graph)Kingfish note: To think JSU advocates were pushing for a third law school years ago. There are no easy answers. Part of this problem is caused by the ABA's rules on accreditation. Law professors don't carry the same courseload as do undergraduate professors. That increases the costs for law schools and makes them less efficient. Some law schools such as Andover (Read about its fight back in the 90's) faced great resistance from the ABA when they tried to use a faculty that was composed of primarily practicing attorneys instead of law professors who never billed an hour or saw a courtroom.
In June, a Department of Education panel recommended temporarily stripping the ABA of the power to accredit new law schools, a responsibility it has held for 93 years. Under heightened scrutiny, the ABA is likely to amend the minimum bar passage requirement for schools to require at least 75% of all graduates that take a bar exam to pass within two years for a school to remain accredited.
Passage rates are declining with student quality all over the country, and Mississippi is no exception. As I recall, when I took it in 2009, the passage rate was 85%. The passage rate for Mississippi’s July, 2015 bar exam was 70.2%. For 2014, MC Law reported an average school pass rate of 72%, which is below the new requirement. The students that took that bar exam are measurably better than the ones that will be taking the bar in 2017 and 2018.
The ABA’s consumer information disclosures have been around long enough that we can now follow a class from its 1L year through to when it takes the bar exam. In 2011, there were five law schools in the country that had 25th percentile LSAT scores in the low 140’s, as MC now does, and we can see how each performed on the bar exam three years later:...
The law schools don't reflect the demand or the market. The ABA model imposed on the law schools mandates students should primarily work no more than twenty hours a week. It prefers students to not work at all. The model assumes students are seeking a degree and must go to law school on a full-time basis, thus forcing students to run up even more debt.
There are executives, business owners, and others who would take classes at law school without seeking a degree if they were allowed to do so. Classes such as contracts, oil & gas, or federal tax come to mind. That is lost revenue for law schools and such students would probably pay for part-time classes without incurring student loan debt.
There is one question for the more recent MCSOL grads who read this site. Does MC still use the dreaded C curve? It used to put their graduates at a disadvantage when they competed with grads from other law schools who benefited from higher grade curves.
So what should MC do? What do readers recommend? Should it close the law school? What improvements or reforms should it make?
63 comments:
Not sure the law school at Ole Miss meets the 75% bat passage rate, either.
Real Question: Are there more MC or OM law grads in the Legislature? Not a jab at any of the parties. Just wondering.
I think Longwitz went there but I could be wrong.
As long as the government keeps throwing money at colleges via guaranteed loans, we will keep producing graduates of all sorts that we do not need. This is no different than borrowing $50,000 to get a humanities degree at Millsaps. You and I are on the hook for these loans, but don't single out the law schools.
And I totally 100% agree on the part-time opportunity. I would love to take a couple of classes for personal enrichment. ABA is guilty of anti-trust :)
Ole Miss passage rate for first time takers in July was 81.7%.
I would think the world would be a better place with out these snakes breeding in jackson and oxford.
Poor ole Matt Steffey, I'm sure gonna miss him.....about as much as a tick on a hound dog.
@11:21
You are correct about the federal loans driving up the price of tuition. To make matters worse, these loans cannot be discharged via bankruptcy. That may sound like a good idea at first, but now you have banks that know they can issue debts that cannot be discharged... so the lenders are incentivized to write more and more of these guaranteed loans. The availability of more students that have access to more loans in turn drives up the price that schools can charge.
Daydreaming. What if the State legislature had actually bought the Jackson School of Law for JSU way back when instead of helping MC, a private school, get the thing. If JSU had real leadership that wouldn't sell out they could have pressed the issue with the Ayers lawsuit. And they would have had the Justice Dept. as an ally. Now the debate would be whether to keep two state law schools or have one in Jackson or one up in Oxford. Ole Miss in Oxford or JSU in Jackson. It would be an interesting debate. After all, who would argue that UMMC ought to be in Oxford. The Feds would be all over it. But the good ole boys of Mississippi got lucky on that one. And the question will not involve closing the Ole Miss Law School. Just daydreaming...
Over the last 15 years, I think MC is guilty of chasing the loan dollars. To do that, they've not told potential students how bad the job market is. Is that MC's responsibility? It's private school so it's basically a business. Also, being a graduate, terminal degree, I'm not sure a law school has the same duty that say a juco, college, etc. tells an 18 year old about the pitfalls of student debt other than whatever the ABA requires. Remember, all of these law students have college degrees. Disclosure, I graduated MC in 2005 right when the legal job market started collapsing.
MC's niche was the "nontraditional" law student, i.e., the older student. Thus, being in Jackson was convenient since most nontraditional students already lived in Jackson and didn't want to move. That was me. Most older students know nothing is a given and they also made educated sacrifices to go back to school. I think a bigger portion is the "traditional" student, especially out of state students where there is no lower tier law school (South Carolina and Louisiana made up large portions of out of state students).
I helped do a tutelage group lunch several years ago for 10 or so 1L's. All said they wanted to do defense work in a big firm. I kid you not. If MC is guilty of anything, it's not telling students the hard truth they won't learn until the spring of their third year. You will not be Ally McBeal. You will not have a job unless you're in the top 5 to 10 students (not percent) of your class or your parent is a lawyer. And, if your grades fall in "x" percentile, you may have trouble passing the bar.
Steffey was not my favorite. However, one day in evidence (mostly 2L's with some 3L's), he spent 30 minutes explaining what classes to take the rest of law school depending on your grades in prep for the bar: if your grades are "x," don't worry about the bar, take whatever classes you want, you've got the smarts and diligence; if your grades are "y," you need to make sure to take some classes that are on the bar exam to ease your prep (secured trans, bankruptcy, etc.) because maybe you lack a little smarts or diligence; if your grades are "z," you need to only take classes that are on the bar because you either have trouble understanding the material or you have poor study habits, either one will doom you. He was right.
Shut. It. Down.
Less lawyers would be better for the public and people who are already lawyers.
to 11
to 11:25, save your BS comments about snakes for the corrupt politicians and meth cookers. you are obviously too stupid to obtain a professional license, thus you insane jealousy.
;
Yes, MC still uses the C curve for first year law students.
It's embarrassing how MC Law has fallen in recent years. In the not-too-distant past, MC students would outnumber UM students during the summers at the better Jackson-area law firms. (Butler Snow was an exception and maybe Watkins & Eager, though I can't be certain about Watkins & Eager.)
Sure, there was an element in the class who couldn't get in at other law schools (many with undergraduate degrees from UM, in fact), but the top and middle of the classes regularly exceeded what you'd get in Oxford. As I recall, MC won the head-to-head Moot Court competition nearly every year, and their Bar passage rates were higher.
Even then, though, classes were too large, and a few worthless professors (I'm looking at you Steffey) tarnished the school. Today, they're having to pay the piper for ill-advised growth, a dependence on those tuition dollars, and now a decline in quality students. The international studies programs are a distraction at this point, morale is low, and the absentee Dean Scott only surfaces for "access to justice"-type appearances.
So, is it time to shut down the law school? No, and certainly not because some dumbass 2009 law graduate has also noticed the dip and has an opinion. It's time for MC to make some hard decisions, though, including admitting to some mistakes and doing what is necessary to fix them.
There are an abundance of lawyers. And very, very few good ones.
Wait a minute--- The article says the pass rate for all students taking the bar exam was 70.2%. Mississippi College pass rate was 72%. ---There are 520 students enrolled in the Ole Miss Law School program and 122 at MC. There's only 2 law schools in Mississippi so basically all those taking the bar exam will be from one of the schools. So if the average for all those taking the exam is 70.2% and MC has an average of 72, then it would be mathematically impossible for the Ole Miss graduates to be making a higher score than the MC students. By my calculation the Ole Miss pass rate would be about 69%.----Maybe they should think about closing the Ole Miss School of Law?
Colleges have become big business. Their cost have skyrocketed and they have been able to do it because of student loans, just like doctors and hospitals have done it because of medical insurance. Many "professors" work only part time but get paid full time. Due to accreditation standards, professors have to publish articles. Why should a student go into debt to subsidize some academic journal?
The solutions is much better management at colleges and universities. Require professors to teach more than one or two classes. Give financial support to those majoring in needed professions like Engineering and computer science. Encourage more to go into technical fields. Those people are needed for our economy whereas we have way too many college graduates in fields where they cannot find jobs. The College and University system is broken. Lets fix it.
C cup = es bueno
C curve = no es bueno
MC Law passage rate for first time takers in July '15 was 80.8%
1:45: Good grief. Math is hard. In regards to number of students, I think you mixed up total number of students spanning all 3 years of law school (520) versus this year's newly admitted class (122).
Did you read any of the articles? They clearly spell out MC's dreadful class statistics (piss poor GPA and LSAT). It's embarrassing really. They are both significantly lower than Ole Miss' numbers and always have been. Their bar passage isn't the greatest either. The gap between MC and Ole Miss hasn't been broader in quite some time.
I graduated from Ole Miss back in the early '90s and I know that we were graded on a strict C curve in the first year. After that, we were still graded on a curve though it may not have been as strict in less formal classes such as seminars. Did that change?
The ABA has such strict standards i'm pretty sure MC Law wouldn't jeopardize losing their accreditation just to keep their class numbers up.
Several folks here make good points. (1997 graduate here.)
1:25 makes the best ones. Very solid post.
Steffey was one of the funniest (nobody could touch Jeff Jackson, who rests in the Savior's arms now, RIP) professors I had. But he was so condescendingly, in-your-face liberal. (Terry Frazier was worse.) Like a lot of them, he thought it was his mission to re-educate all the backward, racist Southerners here. (Judy Johnson was the only Southern, rabid liberal that I can recall.)
And Steffey practiced law for a total of about nine months in his life. I never got why the Clarion Ledger always called him for expert opinions.
Page.
KF - Page?
Had him for one class. Liberal, sure, but not a dick about it, like Steffey or Frazier.
Jeff Jackson was a proud Democrat, but told me several times privately that he found Frazier's and Steffey's intolerance to have "a whiff of fascism." Direct quote. And I never had Callen, but heard nothing but bad things about him.
The headline is a little misleading- The article doesn't question whether MC should exist, it questions whether it will exist in a few years. Also the article doesn't address the jobs issue at all. If law schools cared about their graduates' career outcomes, this crisis would have happened a decade ago. For years, MC produced a number of great graduates, but there are only so many students out there who want to be lawyers and are capable of being lawyers. Right now, there aren't enough of those left over for the bottom 30 or 40 schools, so their going deep down into the applicant pool to get students.
@ 11:21 Law schools are different than humanities degrees at Millsaps. I highly doubt that Millsaps ever made specific representations to new students about their likelihood of getting a job in the humanities or what their expected salary should be, but law schools did that fraudulently for years. Most schools made specific representations about the financial outcomes of their graduates to induce students to spend money at that law school, and those representation often were not true, and this was known by or should have been known by the administration. The lawyers out there will notice that that last sentence contained all of the elements of fraud, because it was.
3:10 It seems 1:45 presented too many numbers for you to follow, soyou got confused.
Let me simplify things:
Two groups take a test, and an average score for all test-takers is reported. Nothing about LSAT scores, GPAs, whether they were kind to stray dogs, nothing except the scores.
One group collectively scored above the average for the total group. Therefore the second group had to score collectively below the average, in order for the average to be, uh, average.
Apparently you went to the Lake Wobegon School of Law, where all the students are above average.
Kingfish,
MC law does have a part-time program, but it's not a nights and weekends or correspondence program. You've got to be there during the day. Also, you've got to pay full tuition and no scholarships are available. MC clearly designed it for revenue, not convenience. Last year, no one enrolled in it, and I think the year before that, 2 people enrolled in it.
"Due to accreditation standards, professors have to publish articles. Why should a student go into debt to subsidize some academic journal? "
A valid question with a real answer. The idea is that those teaching should know more than the routine practitioner of a craft/trade/profession. If someone can get something published in a journal reviewed by one's peers it is a surrogate measure that the faculty member in question is not only up-to-date but is actually generating new knowledge to move the profession forward. It's nor perfect but it's the system we have. If your peers think you're an idiot or woefully out-of-date with modern practice well, then, maybe you shouldn't be teaching the next generation in your profession.
I see atrocious grammar in many of these posts. This is an example: "There are an abundance of lawyers...". But there are worse examples in this thread. I hope that these posts are not being made by graduates of either of Mississippi's law schools.
KF hit the nail on the head. I'd love to take some classes in a law program but definitely not worth giving up my day job to do it.
I would love to see Millsaps purchasing it and cleaning house, if that is even possible.
I graduated from Ole Miss Law School in 1982. Jobs were very hard to come by, even then. There were probably a couple of thousand lawyers in Mississippi at that time. I was luck enough to spend most of my 34 years in Public Service. I can't even imagine where all the law graduates find jobs these days.
Hate to burst your bubbles on the % pass rate debate.
Your givens are not true.
There are quite a few people from law schools outside MS who sit for the bar exam in MS.
To the ultimate question....should MC exist?
It should exist as long as it can pay its bills.
Historically it was able to function as the facility was paid for (donated) and the upkeep was minimal. Quality professors enjoyed teaching and thankful students enjoyed learning. The Jackson law firm culture supported MC and hired many students...and their lawyers taught at MC.
The faculty is too "high brow" while they spent too much money on the facility.
If they can move back to local lawyers teaching more,
Spending less on silly stuff ratcheting down coats, they can brave a dry spell.
If not...it will shutter.
Should MS Litigation Review still be a thing?
4:21....all colleges and all departments do exactly that. It just doesn't cost quite as much as law school. And yes, I'm including Trump U
I do think there is a place for a private law school in Mississippi, but it should be at a respected institution such as Millsaps.
In a perfect world, UMMC moves to Oxford and UM law moves to Jackson.
The question has no place in an environment supported by capitalism and free enterprise. Last I heard, the institution is private, not paid for with government funds.
Whether there should be another service station - convenience store on the next corner will be determined by the market, not by prognosticators who deal in petroleum speculation and car washes, especially those who can't afford to repair their pressure washers.
@6:14. The school is almost entirely supported by government funds in the form of student loans. If it were truly a market, student would be paying out of pocket and tuition would only be a few thousand per year. If MC was dirt cheap, we wouldn't be having this discussion
This is the author of the article linked above. Here is some clarification about bar passage rates:
@5:25 My article uses the average pass rate for the February and July bar exam for Mississippi College as stated in the 509 disclosures provided by the ABA for the school. It's true that MC students who take the bar exam in MS pass at very high rates, but the ABA will look at all states graduates take exams in to determine accreditation.
I found no data available for the rate at which MC law graduates who re-take the exam pass, so I assume that they pass at the same average rate as all test takers. However, this makes several assumptions that work in MC's favor, because (1) the rate includes MC and Ole Miss grads (who tend to higher GPAs and LSAT scores), (2) the rate comes from classes who were academically more qualified than the MC classes of 2017 and 2018,and(3) it also assumes that MC grads who retake bar exams in other states pass at the same rate as MC grads who retake the bar in MS (because MC grads who go out of state fail at a higher rate the first time, I have no reason to believe they do better than their MS counterparts the second time around).
I have not way to account for students who went to school out-of state, but I assume that they are a minority of test-takers.
@2:03. I have not seen school-specific pass rates for last year's July bar exam. The ABA won't release 2015's aggregate results until next year. However, since the overall pass rate was 70% according to an article from CABA, I doubt that both schools scored over 80%.
http://caba.ms/articles/features/bar-results-turn-heads.html
These are the combined yearly bar pass rates for each school:
MC
2014 72%
2013 77.62%
2012 82.4%
U. of Miss.
2014 85.23%
2013 90.82%
2012 72.58%
From MC's website, on the February 2016 bar, 73% of first-time takers passed. I'm not sure what happened in 2012, but Ole Miss routinely has excellent results, even in 2014, which was a difficult year to take the bar due to the new civil procedure section and a widespread software error.
Millsaps will tell you have wonderful it is to have a liberal arts education, but they won't tell you how to pay off a $200,000 loan with the low paying jobs that liberal arts graduates find.
Liberal arts = pharma rep = $$$$$
If you want to question whether or not a certain school should exist in a few years, the school to question is Millsaps. That school has been steady decline while Belhaven and Mississippi College have had tremendous success.
Millsaps definitely has some problems with enrollment.
Enrollment is down nationwide, and expensive private colleges are hurting the most. MC and Belhaven are doing alright because their tuition isn't quite as high. From what I understand, the cost of attendance at MC is about 28k per year. Belhaven is close to that - around 30-31k a year. That's still double of what the IHL's "comprehensive" universities (UM/MSU/USM/JSU) charge. Millsaps is like 50k+ a year.
Plus Millsaps has the reputation among MS high schoolers of being the liberal hippy school, whereas MC and Belhaven attract the fundies. About 60% of Millsaps' undergrad enrollment is out of state. MC is about 45% OOS.
Y'all remember when ole miss lawyers didn't have to take the bar? A degree was proof enough. Those are the people that write your laws now.
Scary, ain't it. In light of the pass/fail rates cited in this thread.
/somewhere in Jackson the worst lawyer in town is out there chasing an ambulance for his next meal.
There are people (7:54 is an example) who actually believe student loans are gifts from the taxpayers and that the people, through government, are burdened by paying for college education of those who take out loans. Loans, unless defaulted upon, are paid back, with interest.
I'm not real sure why Obama decided that the government needed to take over the student loan business, but, that notwithstanding, the taxpayer is not paying for education.
If you want to question whether or not certain schools will exist.....question having all these state colleges...which are marginal educational institutions except maybe for engineering.
Ole Miss should be merged with Jackson State and MSU and USM and Valley and Delta State and Alcorn.
The state wastes tens of millions of dollars yearl in redundant expenses for zero gain other than keeping white people in one spot and black people in another.
And don't think Millsaps man Tate isn't looking at whacking these sacred cows for his "zero government"
Game plan.
I graduated from a nationally ranked top-20 law school several decades ago now. I was in the middle of the class, but my degree was (and is) from a very prestigious school. The job market was no issue. I had various good choices with good private firms. My classmates secured jobs from Wall Street to Texas to L.A. Nobody had real concerns about employment. I practiced with a very large multi-state firm out-of-state before deciding to come back home to practice with a well-established firm in Mississippi.
A couple of years ago I attended Homecoming at my law school (still ranked among the nation's best). I was shocked at the culture change. Although my school still places most of it's graduates in good legal-related jobs, employment in a legal field is no longer a certainty. In fact, the school has developed a very innovative way of supporting graduates financially for up to a year after graduation in a public services job while permanent legal employment is sought. A good program, favorable to graduates, but telling of the job climate for sure. All I can say is that the legal world has vastly changed (I'm not saying anything y'all don't already know, of course). But, I assure you, it affects not only Ole Miss and MC, but also nationally-ranked top tier schools. That is the reality in the 21st Century.
But lawyers have so many more options for car-window decals.
Nothing would make a happier than to see MC law go under or up in flames.
@Ken Walley, civil procedure was not added to the MBE until February 2015.
5:41--just who is going to pay to move an entire medical complex to oxford? do you have any idea how much it costs to build a teaching hospital? Have you ever been there? do you want to try to estimate the value of the medical equipment alone? you just can't call "two men and a truck" and move it!
Judging by your comments, you must be a Millsaps alum. I can assure you that Mississippi College is a reputable institution-please go compare the last few years of enrollment data of the two places. You will be astonished (and in heavy denial) when you see facts.
For the record--Alabama alum. Son in college (MC for pre-med. Where's Millsaps' wet cadaver lab? its nowhere to be found on that barbed-wire fenced in prison)
I wonder how pissing on half of his colleagues and peers will help this Walley guy out down the road?
I'm a MC Law grad who decided not to practice law. I consistently make over $200k a year in a non-law related job. My law degree opened the doors for my success that my OM undergraduate degree by itself could never have done.
As an experienced lawyer with an undergrad degree from MC in business, I wholeheartedly agree with the posters above:
Millsaps should buy MC law school.
MC Law School represents the kind of business opportunity that only a brilliant humanities professor at an elite college like Millsaps could recognize.
I sincerely hope Millsaps will take this potential gold mine off MC's hands, then appoint a blue ribbon committee of professors from the gender studies, sociology, and music departments to "clean house," as the poster above put it.
With this kind of real-world know-how --coupled with the Millsaps brand, which is revered from St. Andrews all the way to Jackson Academy-- MC Law's future would be bright indeed.
Millsaps administration, this is a no brainer: Listen to your alums on JJ and buy the MC Law School today!
Ole Miss had the opportunity to acquire the Jackson School of Law back in the 90s and should have done so. Just like the medical school, it makes far more sense for Ole Miss to have its law school in Jackson where the state appellate courts are located and there are more jobs. My experience has been that MC has produced lawyers just as bright (if not brighter) as those from Ole Miss over the past 10 years. Based on the information in this article, however, those days may be over. Maybe its time for Ole Miss to reconsider acquiring MC law school and moving to Jackson? But Ole Miss just built a new state-of-the-art school in Oxford. Oh well....
Mississippi College and Belhaven have done well while Millsaps flounders? Millsaps is true to its mission. Success is not measured in number of new buildings and total enrollment (this is where MC Law has failed). MC and Belhaven have "grown" by coming up with hokey degrees. Does one need a degree in Criminal Justice? Sports Management? Hospitality Management. Fashion Merchandising? Give me a break. Stealing. The purpose of liberal arts degree from Millsaps is not "job training", it is to prepare one for graduate/professional school. Check out how many Millsaps students earn advanced degrees. Its not the exception, it's the norm. I cannot find the book, but I once had a book that judged colleges by looking at graduates 10 years POST GRADUATION. U.S. News only ranks schools based on test scores and GPAs of incoming students. Millsaps, based on looking at grads later in life, was identified as one of the top schools in the United States of America. Seriously. Objectively.
Millsaps is recovering, but they struggled for years. They're in no position to buy a law school. Even if they were, why would you want to? The school is probably deep in the red and might lose accreditation. The argument that Millsaps should buy the school revolves around prestige alone, which is useless. Students aren't avoiding MC because it isn't sufficiently prestigious. They're avoiding it because it's too expensive compared to the jobs graduates get. Changing the name on the door isn't going to improve the situation. MC provides the same quality education that they did when they produced any number of fine lawyers. The difference now is the students, not the school.
The dean is fighting against tightening the accreditation rules because it would hurt diversity. Of course, the letter doesn't answer how boatloads of minority students who don't pass the bar exam, can't find jobs, and are drowning in student debt is going to diversify the legal profession:
"...proposed a set of changes to Standard 316 that would, if adopted,
jeopardize the existence of traditionally minority law schools and ultimately erase
the profession’s modest gains in diversity over the last several decades."
"Twenty-two law schools, for example, enroll a third or more minority students and have an average bar passage rate among first-time takers at or below 65 percent for one or more of the past five years, and thus face an uphill battle to reach 75 percent after three more administrations of the test."
"The Council’s strict, 75 percent, across-the-board cut off for a school’s bar passage rate, regardless of whether the school is heavily minority and its students generally score lower on the standardized bar exam or the school is whiter and tends to score higher, produces the same unacceptable result; it necessarily either (1) denies accreditation to schools with minority students of comparable ability to those of whiter institutions that remain accredited, or (2) says that students of color are not, in general, as capable their non-minority counterparts."
http://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/administrative/legal_education_and_admissions_to_the_bar/council_reports_and_resolutions/comments/201607_comment_s316_concerned_law_schools_nba_salt_cruz_reynoso.authcheckdam.pdf
Per MC Law's new dean, if you don't think minority-heavy law schools should have lower bar passage requirements, then you believe "that students of color are not, in general, as capable [sic] their non-minority counterparts."
Put another way, if you think minority students are equally capable, you must agree they should have lower standards.
If logic like that gets you the dean's job, it's no surprise that MC law students are having trouble with the bar.
Diversity be damned. If they cannot pass the bar they should find another type of work more fitted to their education level. I would hate to find out the lawyer I paid my hard earned money to defend me couldn't pass the bar without preference given for his skin color.
Same would be true for a doctor. Just because a person has a special color skin does not make them any different than any other person. Especially when it can come down to a person's life.
1:54. that's exactly the arrogance that is leading to the closure of Millsaps. 3-5 years and your transcripts will be issued from belhaven or mc because there's not going to be a registrar at Millsaps...
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