Friday, July 17, 2015

Flag debate question: WWRELD?

The Flag Fight continues to rage across the South.  One question that is not always asked is "What would General Robert E. Lee do?  He is praised and hated yet his thoughts on the matter are rarely discussed.  Here are some quotes of General Lee from various works:


Someone wrote me of a woman asking Lee what to do with an old battle flag. Lee supposedly responded, “Fold it up and put it away.” Though I’ve not verified the account, it is consistent with his letters and acts of his last years. He was always looking ahead. Column by Robert E. Lee author David Cox.

I think it wisest not to keep open the sores of war, but to follow the example of those nations who endeavored to obliterate the marks of civil strife, and to commit to oblivion the feelings it engendered. P. 213, Personal Reminisces of General  Robert E. Lee (1875)


To a mother, who brought him her two sons, loudly expressing her hatred of the North, he said, " Madam, don't bring up your sons to detest the United States Government. Recollect that we form but one country, now. Abandon all these local animosities, and make your sons Americans."

Here again is a charming incident, which will well illustrate his goodness : One of his friends, on passing by Lee's garden-gate, found him conversing with a man poorly clad, to whom he had just given something, and who appeared exceedingly happy at the general's courteous welcome. Presently the man saluted him and withdrew. " That is one of our old soldiers in want," explained Lee. Naturally enough the friend thought he meant some Confederate veteran, when Lee, lowering his voice, added : " He was not on our side, but that doesn't signify." P. 331 of Life and Campaigns of General Lee (1875)

Then there is this Daily Beast column by Robert E. Lee biographer and former White House speechwriter Jonathan Horn.   Mr. Horn wrote:

Almost 150 years after the end of the Civil War, the skirmishing over how to remember the most famous rebel general continues even at a Virginia college named, in part, for him. About half the students and alumni polled by a campus magazine opposed the decision to remove the flags this summer. Fortunately, the university officials who made the call can draw on the example of an improbable and imperfect champion: Lee himself.

Shortly after surrendering the Confederate Army of Northern Virginia in April 1865, Lee became president of a war-torn school known then only as Washington College. The same day he took office, he took an oath to “henceforth” support the U.S. Constitution. He advised fellow former Confederates to do the same.

Far from being relics of Lee’s tenure, the Confederate battle flags only arrived in the college chapel decades after Lee’s death and were later replaced with the historically meaningless reproductions that hung until recently.

Lee did not want such divisive symbols following him to the grave. At his funeral in 1870, flags were notably absent from the procession. Former Confederate soldiers marching did not don their old military uniforms, and neither did the body they buried. “His Confederate uniform would have been ‘treason’ perhaps!” Lee’s daughter wrote.

So sensitive was Lee during his final years with extinguishing the fiery passions of the Civil War that he opposed erecting monuments on the battlefields where the Southern soldiers under his command had fought against the Union. “I think it wiser moreover not to keep open the sores of war, but to follow the examples of those nations who endeavoured to obliterate the marks of civil strife and to commit to oblivion the feelings it engendered,” he wrote. Rest of column.

In the Good Book it is written that Christ used parables to teach his message in a language people understood.  Those who want to remove all flags Confederate in nature might want to consider using the words of someone respected by their opponents as Congressman James Clyburn did recently.  Such will not happen as those who want to obliterate it are so blinded by their hatred and immaturity that this idea will probably never cross their politically correct minds.  However, the question of what General Lee would recommend is worth asking if we are to have this debate and have it honestly. 

41 comments:

Burke said...

General Lee's words, like those of Christ, are premised on the need for us to change for the better. That's a big problem, because it's a rare human who will voluntarily change his or her life for ANY reason.

"So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past." Fitzgerald, "The Great Gatsby"

I'm feeling pessimistic today. Most days I still believe that we are capable of treating others as we would have them treat us, and that many of us are even willing to do so.

Anonymous said...

History books, the media, the school systems, etc abound in falsehoods and inaccuracies of Confederate and Southern history.

MYTH - The War of 1861 - 1865 was fought over slavery.

FACT - Terribly untrue. The North fought the war over money. Plain and simple. When the South started Secession, Lincoln was asked, "Why not let the South go in peace?" To which he replied, "I can't let them go. Who would pay for the government?" Sensing total financial ruin for the North, Lincoln waged war on the South. The South fought the War to repel Northern aggression and invasion.

MYTH - Only Southerners owned slaves.

FACT - Many Northern civilians owned slaves. Prior to, during and even after the War Of Northern Aggression.

most Union Generals and staff had slaves to serve them! William T. Sherman had many slaves that served him until well after the war was over and did not free them until late in 1865.

U.S. Grant also had several slaves, who were only freed after the 13th amendment in December of 1865. When asked why he didn't free his slaves earlier, Grant stated "Good help is so hard to come by these days."

Contrarily, Confederate General Robert E. Lee freed his slaves (which he never purchased - they were inherited) in 1862!!! Lee freed his slaves several years before the war was over, and considerably earlier than his Northern counterparts. And during the fierce early days of the war when the South was obliterating the Yankee armies!

Lastly, and most importantly, why did NORTHERN States outlaw slavery only AFTER the war was over? The so-called "Emancipation Proclamation" of Lincoln only gave freedom to slaves in the SOUTH! NOT in the North! This pecksniffery even went so far as to find the state of Delaware rejecting the 13th Amendment in December of 1865 and did not ratify it (13th Amendment / free the slaves) until 1901!


MYTH - The Confederate Battle Flag was flown on slave ships.

FACT - NONE of the flags of the Confederacy or Southern Nation ever flew over a slave ship. Nor did the South own or operate any slaves ships. The English, the Dutch and the Portuguese brought slaves to this country, not the Southern Nation.

BUT it is also very important to know and understand that Federal, Yankee, Union ships brought slaves to America! These ships were from the New England states, and their hypocrisy is atrocious.

These Federals were ones that ended up crying the loudest about slavery. But without their ships, many of the slaves would have never arrived here. They made countless fortunes on the delivery of slaves as well as the products made from raw materials such as cotton and tobacco in the South.


MYTH - The United States Flag represented freedom.

FACT - No chance. The US flag flew over a slave nation for over 85 years! The North tolerated slavery and acknowledged it as a Division Of Labor. The North made a vast fortune on slavery and it's commodities. It wasn't until the South decided to leave the Union that the North objected. The North knew it could not survive without the Southern money. That is the true definition of hypocrisy.


MYTH - Abraham Lincoln was the Great Emancipator.

FACT - While Lincoln has went down in history as the Great Emancipator, many would not care to hear his real thoughts on people of color. Martyred President Abraham Lincoln was fervently making plans to send all freed slaves to the jungles of Central America once the war was over. Knowing that African society would never allow the slaves to return back to Africa, Lincoln also did not want the slaves in the US. He thought the jungles of Central America would be the best solution and conducive to the freed slaves best interest. The only thing that kept this from happening, was his assassination.

Reality Watch said...

One reality that makes it tougher to agree to change the flag is the fact that so many radical blacks and their hateful, race-baiting masters will see that as victory and they will only be emboldened to 'take' even more. Satisfaction and peace are not in their dictionary. They will not stop demanding until they have (the rest of) our land, our money, our savings accounts, our houses, our institutions, our businesses and our grave sites.

Anonymous said...

I think y'all missed the point of the post. Let it go.

Bill Dees said...

Ditto what @3:08 said.

Anonymous said...

@ 3.00PM
I won’t argue the talking points that the assistant defensive line coach who also taught history at Benton Academy related to you in the 11th grade regarding the causes of the Civil War. However, in 2015 the point about the Confederate Flag is not its history, but its current perception. It is like the word gay, that used to imply a description of a happy and jolly person, which now means something totally different.
In 2015, the rebel, battle, confederate, Virginia or whatever you want to call the stars and bars is now associated with hate groups and neo Nazi’s. No one cares if the Civil War was about anymore, as it occurred 150 years ago. Most people, however, do think that it is offensive.

Anonymous said...

R. E. Lee had fought a long hard war that never should have been fought and lost. We are in a bigger war today and we are certainly not winning. Bigger because if we loose it will sink all of the USA. This war is about political correctness. Time after time after time the PC crowd throws a fit and people cave in. We elect people to congress who promise to stand up to this nut job in the White House. The PC crowd gets on them and they cave in. The thing is, PC is only about agreeing with liberals. Examples: Black children are aborted at five times the rate of white children so the PC thing should be abortion is racist. Wrong. The Liberals are FOR abortion so to be PC you must be for it also. Study after study has shown that raising minimum wage causes high unemployment among people with less experience, skills, and education. This tends to be black teenagers. So the PC thing should be raising the minimum wage keeps black teenagers unemployed and hurts many of them for years and years. Wrong again. Donald Trump was a little too blunt, but he basically said that the Mexicans who come her illegally are not bank presidents and dentists, but are more likely to be criminals and troublemakers. This is so oblivious true that you may even wonder why he said it. In addition, not enforcing the immigration laws takes jobs away from blacks in disproportionate numbers, so it is racist. Wrong again. According to the PC police.
This flag has been adopted by hate groups and troublemakers. The PC police are saying that I must stand against the flag or else I am a racist. I have never owned a rebel flag or anything with a rebel flag on it, but I will be damned if I let the PC police define who I am for me. They can GTH. You watch and see. If we cave on this little thing the monuments and street names will be next. I would like to be around in 100 years so I could blow up the the Barrack Oboma Presidential Library when the PC police finally admit what a fool he was.
Folks, vote however you wish. It is your right to vote. If you feel that voting to keep the flag would be racist of you, vote against it. To me it stands for pride in being a southerner. But please, please, don't do something just to satisfy the PC police. They are never satisfied and they are destroying this nation.

Robert P. Wise said...

The museum below Lee Chapel at Washington & Lee is well worth the visit. The old battle flags are there. I was privileged to graduate from the W&L Law School. A beautiful place.

My favorite Lee story: Following the war Lee returned to Richmond. There he attended St. Paul's Episcopal Church. One Sunday a black man came from the back of the church came forward and knelt at the Communion rail. For a time none of the other congregants moved. General Lee got up and knelt beside the black man and took the Eucharist. Other members of the congregation then followed. Robert E. Lee always led by example.

Lets Burn Some Bibles said...

You may be right 4:06. Would you like to also discuss the bastardization of the German Swastika? Who in their right mind could consider it an emblem of heritage? Never mind the fact that American Indians used that same symbol long before Hitler was born. And I'll hold my breath while YOU recommend that the Jews do away with the Star of David since it's used as a predominant gang symbol now. Your selective indignation reeks of ignorance.

Oh, and 'most people' my ass. Please publish your poll.

Let's trade chaotic madness for methodical wisdom said...

Like an onion chopped in half, there are several layers of meaning to both parts of the split onion. It seems as if one so much approaches any hot button issue in a philosophical way so as to account for all of the layers, both parts of the onion try to drag one into their respective part of the severed onion and in that very process, you become split in two by nothing more than labels.

What would lee do? We already know that. Lee wanted the Nation to overcome the devastation and continue on as one Union, but then again, Lee was a true leader in spirit and in life. He wasn't a modern day political hack who needed a flag to distinguish who he was even though he fought under such a flag.

One side says it's about racism, the other side sees heritage and not bowing down to P.C. Police. I see American Nationalism and for that very view, sadly, I will be lambasted by both sides. That's the true travesty in all of this.

Anonymous said...

3:00, You gave a long history lesson that had nothing to do with that corner on the Mississippi flag that represents those 13 states that decided to secede from the Union and, definitely yes, keep slavery as an institution. No, the flag wasn't flown over slave ships, but it was created after the start of the Civil War, so the current flag is not the original Mississippi flag. By the way, whatever money Mississippi had ran out pretty fast during the war.

4:07, First, anybody who uses the word "They" as much as you do is either racist or a coward. Second, where did you get your abortion statistic? I think you made that up, because all I ever hear about from White people is that Black women have babies just to get $100 worth of food stamps and a housing voucher to live in substandard housing. It's because of people with your mentality that Mississippi stays on the bottom of every good list and at the top of every bad list. All races should be working together to make our state great, but instead we are pulling against each other with all of this in-fighting.

Johnny Weir said...

I'm really tired of everyone flipping out over a piece of cloth. My goodness read & discuss about something more substantial. Like images of Pluto. How wonderful in your lifetime you could see such an amazing thing. The stars & Bars are not holding anyone down. But, go ahead and use that as an excuse why you are working at a McDonalds.
Ten things I remind myself of every morning. Some days I even accomplish some of them.
1. You are where you are because of past decisions. If you want to be somewhere else, start making different decisions.
2. Respect is not a participation trophy. You have to earn it.
3. Don’t try to please other people. If you want to succeed, set your own higher standards.
4. Disrespect is fuel, not a reason to quit.
5. Hard work solves most problems.
6. Learn to laugh at what scares you.
7. Pay your blessings forward and help others find their blessings.
8. There is no pro in procrastination. It’s totally an amateur move.
9. Appreciate every sunrise. Make your effort be your thank you note.
10. Love unconditionally. Everything else, set standards.

Anonymous said...

Redneck priorities.....

Flag
Heritage
Robert E Lee
Jesus

Sadly, in that order.

Anonymous said...

"Second, where did you get your abortion statistic? I think you made that up, because all I ever hear about from White people...."

Look it up yourself, lazy. Those numbers are on the money.

Also check out quotes from Margaret Sanger, founder of Planned Parenthood, such as thos one:

" We should hire three or four colored ministers, preferably with social-service backgrounds, and with engaging personalities. The most successful educational approach to the Negro is through a religious appeal. We don’t want the word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population, and the minister is the man who can straighten out that idea if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members."

(Margaret Sanger’s December 19, 1939 letter to Dr. Clarence Gamble, 255 Adams Street, Milton, Massachusetts. Also described in Linda Gordon’s Woman’s Body, Woman’s Right: A Social History of Birth Control in America. New York: Grossman Publishers, 1976.)

Anonymous said...

@7:37, I am swiping your 10 Things List. It is really good and worthy.. Thanks.

Robert P. Wise said...

So WWRELD?

He would ask why it is taking us so long to change the flag when the times have changed so much? He focused his last years in turning Washington College into a national student body with a distinguished faculty from North and South. REL did not look back except to ride Travellor ever day to overlook the beautiful Blue Ridge from the countryside around Lexington. Neither should we look back except to do that which is noble. It is time to change the flag.

Anonymous said...

6:48 "In fighting" ?? No. We vote. It's a democracy. I would vote to keep the flag, but I think most people would vote to change it. A lot of people on here seem to be afraid to vote. But you want the flag issue to go away. This is how it goes away. The people vote to change it. If politicians try to change it without letting the people vote it doesn't go away. Let the people vote. Then we stick together.
The other thing is a lot of people on here seem to get upset that everyone does not agree with them about the flag. It ain't gonna happen. 2/3 of the state voted to keep it just a few years ago. No reason to be upset. If you get 51% of the people to vote your way be happy. Personally I don't see how anyone can be in favor of killing unborn children or gay 'marriage' but I know that everyone is not going to agree with me and I don't expect them to.

WWJS? said...

WWJS? What would Jesus say? (paraphrased) If one causes one of the little ones (children) to turn away from Me, it is better to drown.

What happens to the children of our african-american brothers and sisters that grow up hating white people? Do they convert to islam? Or do they become Christians?

If it were up to me, I would have ditched the flag when we had the chance. I did vote to change to the abominable design proposed for the reasons above: It is offensive and might cause a young child to grow up in hatred, distrust, etc and potentially move him away from the saving grace of Jesus Christ.

I would like to brag and say that I am the least person worthy of the gift of salvation, but my pride will not let me. Suffice it to say, I am one of the least persons in the world worthy of the gift of salvation. And if flying the battle flag deters from my ability to converse and attempt to persuade others, dump it.

For to keep it for "heritage" is not correct. The men from Mississippi fought, died, and survived under the Magnolia flag with the Bonnie Blue in the canon.

Matt 18:6

But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea.


/to the person that said the civil war wasn't about slavery, read the articles of secession. really. you might learn something.

//disclaimer: my family has been in Mississippi since it was a territory. My GGG grandfather owned 13 slaves in what is now Lincoln County, named after the republican President.

/// the current flag is not in the state constitution.

//// last disclaimer: I have been an opponent of the current flag since I first read of Representative Charles Flaggs, Vicksburg, attempts to replace it in the 1990's. And his proposed laws never made it out of committee.

It is time for Mississippi to drop the charades and grow up. Really, if the flag had an image of somebody flipping the bird on it, would you be so quick to praise/defend it?

It is flying the finger of fellowship that offends 30+% of the population. Change it and move on.


From The Rafters said...

It's Saturday morn! Time for Burke and Dees to raise their cups and proclaim the discussion over. And we'll all heed their advice as usual. Right? Goobers.

Anonymous said...

From some of the things I have read it is not even clear if the current state flag is legally and officially the state flag even now. For many years it was flown "unofficially" as the state flag and the 2001 vote was non-binding and had no legal weight and nothing further happened after then. It is time for it to go. It may have to wait until January but it would be his legacy if Bryant woke up one day and decided he would join Nikki Haley and Robert Bentley and just do the right thing and call a special session and get this over.

Anonymous said...

"It's Saturday morn! Time for Burke and Dees to raise their cups and proclaim the discussion over. And we'll all heed their advice as usual. Right? "

Of course. Like global warming, it's settled science. No debate allowed.

Anonymous said...

"It may have to wait until January but it would be his legacy if Bryant woke up one day and decided he would join Nikki Haley and Robert Bentley and just do the right thing and call a special session and get this over. "

Just make sure the new flag has a crucifix and maybe a crown of thorns on it. That will keep the libs' man-panties in a twist for another 100+ years.

Anonymous said...

What 3:08 said.

Also, likely my favorite post. Great work KF.

Burke said...

Why drag Dees into it?

Anonymous said...

You know what 9:47. I think that's a perfect idea. The way the baptists ( and others) tend to turn people away from Christianity and their children start to wonder what's goin down at the Hindu temple, we need some sort of saving grace to balance the scales of perception.

As a furtherance of any postulation that will rebrand the state, what we really need is some truth in advertising. Ya see, I'm under the persuasion that Christ would not want to be remembered by a crucifix with his body dangling from it. Not only is it just plain odd, if you think about it long and hard, it tends to take on some form of idolatry and leaves us with the sad fact that if Jesus were to come to our lovely state, many of you might crucify him again.
Anywho, truth of in advertising is the way to go. As long as we're talking about that concept of crucifixes and history, let's keep with history and add some fire around that crucifix. Or better yet, let's just rename the place to "Mississippi: The War State." We've got war parks, war contractors, we've even got a B&B with a cannon ball in the wall. Renaming this place " The War State" ought to show the liberal pinko bastards and anyone else where we as a state really stand shouldn't it? I've always joked that Jackson and a nearby neighboring city are like Soddom and Gomorrah. As luck would have it, in geology, I leanred that there was an extinct volcano under the colliseum. Hellfire and Brimstone, indeed.

Speaking of truth in advertising and getting down to the truth of things, we can just parallel Lincoln with Bush (2) and just tell the children that both had to use half truths to sell their wars that would rage on untill the end of time. I figure it's time we vindicate our modern military that are fallen and/or still seeing the fallout from that little venture into hell. While we're shooting fireworks off of the Mississippi from barges near Vicksburg, we also need to remind the children that if it weren't for casino money, that Vicksburg probably wouldn't be celebrating the 4th because anyone who's not brainwashed in this state knows what else happened on the 4th of a different July that wasn't so glorious for us. The whole celebration should be renamed, " The Siege".

Let us all revive the true history around this place so we can BE PROUD of it. Let's dig down to the truth and proudly call ourselves Missippians and Americans and see what kind of weird variety of home cooked patriotism we can get away with. I mean hell, if the media can do it, why can't we?

Minor Correction, If I May... said...

At 7:19 (and others) who rest on this> "/to the person that said the civil war wasn't about slavery, read the articles of secession. really. you might learn something."

It might come as a surprise to you, but secession and war were two separate events. The states that seceded did not secede in order to go to war. They simply seceded. It was your boy Lincoln's idea to press forward to war.

It takes quite a numbskull to conclude that states seceded in order to have war. Secession would have moved along quite well through perpetuity (I assume) had Brother Lincoln not moved his vessels into the territory of another country, thereby starting his unnecessary war.

Anonymous said...

@1136. They with split because they wanted the institution of white superiority and slavery preserved. They went to war to defend it. It's not that hard to comprehend, is it? Because the south shot first.

Minor Correction If I May... said...

What a numbskull. It's not denied that 'The South shot first'; however, what the low information crowd, represented by yourself, seem to have no clue that The Confederacy simply defended their port by 'shooting' at northern ships that had invaded. You really ought to do yourself a favor and read up on history. Start with tariffs. Come back and report........

Anonymous said...

12:34 is the typical uneducated youngster who still believes Lincoln 'freed the slaves'. It must be true since he's been told that since fourth grade.

Anonymous said...

12:24 here. Well, I looked up some history and here is what I found. From the Mississippi declaration of secession

"In the momentous step, which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course.

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery - the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product, which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.

That we do not overstate the dangers to our institution, a reference to a few facts will sufficiently prove....

It advocates negro equality, socially and politically, and promotes insurrection and incendiarism in our midst....."

Strange, I don't see the word "tariff" anywhere in the document.

http://www.sonofthesouth.net/leefoundation/Mississippi_causes.htm

Robert P. Wise said...

4:34: Correct on all counts: The great State of Mississippi succeeded from the Union primarily over slavery. In fact, according to historian Timothy B. Smith in "Mississippi in the Civil War The home Front", 85% (85 of 100 delegates) of the Mississippi Sucession Convention were slave holders, owning at least one slave and in many cases more, a far, far greater proportion of slaveholders than in the general population of Mississippi farmers. (Smith, p.13). People like my great, great grandfather, paroled at Vicksburg, who owned no slaves, participated in a rich slaveholder's war. The ensuing destruction to Mississippi's infrastructure (roads, bridges, railroads, factories) was so great, Smith shows, that MS was for all real purposes out of the Civil War after Vicksburg. As one historian said to me, too bad we could not go back and counsel our ancestors that their path would create everlasting ruin for over a generation. There should have been a better path.

Anonymous said...

8.29 There WAS a better path. Nations all over the globe ended slavery without a war. Lincoln started the war. Several state had discussion succession over many years. War had never been mentioned. Slavery would have died in the south. It is not economically fesable. After that happened, the two nations may have reunited. Even as two nations they could have been trading partners. Lincoln would not allow it and many people dies too young as a result.

http://iahushua.com/hist/lincoln.html
http://www.tulane.edu/~sumter/Reflections/LinWar.html

Anonymous said...

1. It is secede, not succeed, succession, etc.
2. Lee didn't inherit slaves, his wife did. Lee was executor of the will, which called for them to be freed. He never actually owned them or any other slaves.

The Greatest Scoundrel Unhung said...

Idiots and selective historians (redundancy) abound here. The State of Mississippi did not make up the Confederacy. We were only one state. Neither the war nor the Confederacy was started over the issue of slavery. That merely became another of Lincoln's conveniences. A more recent way of explaining this in the class of 'Numbskulls 101' is to illustrate by using the example of a US Diplomatic team being killed by a group of Islamic Terrorists and the Captain of the ship blaming it on a video.

A number of states in the north also considered membership in The Confederacy. Do you want to suggest they were preparing to go to war in order to preserve slavery?

Prior to capitalizing on the issue of slavery, as an explanation for his war, Lincoln was one of this nation's foremost supporters of the institution of slavery. How many quotes from 'the debates' would you like as proof?

Anonymous said...

@5:58

Do you know how I know that you are wrong? Did you read the post that detailed reasons Misissipi took off? It is abundantly clear to any non revisionist/denial it's that they left because of slavery. Slave states were losing voting power in (because feed states were going to outnumber them and thus gain more power as a voting block), saw what the future held and left the union to preserve slavery. The south fired first, not Lincoln. Had they not, lincoln would never had just cause to fire back.

Let's ditch the flag that flips the bird at the descendants of the slaves.

Robert P. Wise said...

I do not buy the romantic notion slavery would have ended on its own. Free labor is powerful economically and could have gone forever. Look around you today. Remember the case of the Indian diplomat here who was expelled because his wife kept a Pakistani nanny in slavery in DC? Or the cases where illegal immigrants have been worked for practically nothing on farms and kept in horribly over crowded conditions? Or in the UAE where foreign labor has been paid next to nothing to build their gleaming cities?

Thank God for Lincoln. He brought it to a head here and did the necessary to end US slavery as a legal institution here once and for all.

Anonymous said...

On history, let me pull a quote from the father of such a curious endeavor in which we find ourselves,
"I am bound to tell what I am told, but not in every case to believe it."
- Herodotus
The vey father of modern day history sums it up for any of us with doubts about any factualization of the truth regarding our own history in this nation or anywhere else. Just because it is written does not make it true. We have poured over documents to try to gain a glimpse into the very souls of men and women only to paint a larger than life picture of their life's work, or if it suits our own agenda's, liken them unto evil.
If it is for reasons such as these why modern day thinkers talk about being on the 'right' side of history. The winners shape their preferred narrative so as to taint the facts in their favor as if they are Gods and Godesses among humanity with not even the slightest fault of their own.
On the issue of slavery, The South had a whole economy to loose and nothing to gain by its abolition. Of course the South fought it out. The North had a lot to loose by a whole group of states just disappearing into nothingness.
Bring yourself to the modern day world of warfare. What typically happens to groups of people who seek our ruin and by extension our economy? We either ruin them, their economy, or both. Sometimes we do this lightly with a little international effort called sanctions so as to avoid an all out war. There are many tools to subvert the will of others to bring them into accordance with our own.
Also, I find it quite odd that slavery is demonized ( as it should be) in America, yet we can hardly by a product that wasn't created by modern day slavery this day and age. Seemingly, the only profitable remedy to slavery is industrialization and machinery. Slavery has, throughout history, made many a profit and built many a nation and will continue to do so as long as we are human. In my opinion, the practice should never be glorified, yet be put in it's proper place. Slavery is a sad fact of life here on earth.
One man did not end slavery in America or the social order which it sought to preserve so as to elevate one race over another. Many, and I mean many, struggled after the Civil War to seek the promise of true freedom. It was only until not so many years ago that the 'civil rights movement' happened ( and yes, white people were involved on both sides of the argument). To say that anyone person ended slavery and the social order that came with it is a slap in the face to all who have dared to stand up to those in power and push forth for the promise of freedom in which they were promised.

Today we find ourselves arguing over a very symbol that tends to glorify our own evils more than our virtues, for Americans of all races and creeds are humans too.
To say that we are saints and always have been, or Gods among humanity with nary a falter insults our own intelligence and the very message of Christ, of which, so many have found inspiration to bring truth to power and end what inhumane practices we can so as to better not just our own land, but the world around us, for true evil always has been and always will be waiting in the shadows to catch us off our own guards while we find refuge in our egos; no law or war will ever make it go away. We are a beacon to the world. A metaphorical shining city on the hill. Something to look upon with inspiration, and that very fact is what gives so many the hope that is needed to continue on in a world of chaos and confusion. If we continue on hiding with our own egos and nicely carved perceptions, then true evil has already won. Anyone who is not blind can see that there is more work to be done in order to become a more perfect Union.

I will end my rant with what I like to call the 11th commandment that is so easy to forget sometimes,

" Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."


Anonymous said...

To 8:47 who said - 'I do not buy the romantic notion slavery would have ended on its own. Free labor is powerful economically and could have gone forever.'
I believe the consensus of economist is that the south did profit from slavery, but there have been conclusions on both sides of this. Slaves must be housed, clothed, fed, and given medical care not only when they are productive, but also as young children and as elderly people.
In my opinion the situation is different in two major ways today. First - today we have many more ways to profit from an employees brain power than in the 1800's. While you may force a person to perform slave labor physically it is very difficult to get them to use their entire brain on a task they do not want to be doing. Second - the plantations were perfect for slave labor because one foreman or overseer could supervise a large number of slaves. With modern equipment and technology many jobs can be accomplished by very few people. So where you might have had 10 slaves and one overseer digging a building foundation, today you have one slave on a backhoe. But because he is a slave he needs a supervisor. Why not replace these two with one paid backhoe operator?
Another line of reasoning - suppose you had a landscaping business and were using slaves. Each slave must be fed, housed, clothed, and have medical care for his entire life. That is from birth to death. Or you can buy a slave who is already grown. I think the price in the old south was about $50,000 per man in current dollars. You could hire a free man for $7.50 an hour and the free man is working for raises and promotions. And he is paid only when he works. If he is too young or old to work he is not there and costs the business nothing. You can run the numbers if you wish, but it looks to me that there is no way that the slave is economical in this situation.
Another line of reasoning - when is the last time a nation was profiting significantly from slavery ? Must have been at least 100 years ago. Today we have prison labor. Is this an economic force? No. Bottom line slaves do not work like free me work and they have significant costs.

He Did No He Did said...

The nation would not have survived beyond 1845 had it not been for the money generated by the South. You simpletons who are still resting your case on 'who fired the first shot' are pissing down your britches legs. But, that's ok. You do that frequently.

Anonymous said...

we need stop pointing fingers...
not forget the faces and great stories that came out of a war
not dwell or be overshadow by the ugliness of war but look at this war the same way congress did..
.A Veteran a Veteran no matter what
Here is the face of a confederate soldiers
Click here see for your self
Truth is written in the words of history

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1666008163620254&set=o.477059895646927&type=1

Anonymous said...

4:07 PM
On whose back was that money generated???? You’re not even smart enough to enjoy the white privileges you have. Dummy

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Trollfest '09

Trollfest '07 was such a success that Jackson Jambalaya will once again host Trollfest '09. Catch this great event which will leave NE Jackson & Fondren in flames. Othor Cain and his band, The Black Power Structure headline the night while Sonjay Poontang returns for an encore performance. Former Frank Melton bodyguard Marcus Wright makes his premier appearance at Trollfest singing "I'm a Sweet Transvestite" from "The Rocky Horror Picture Show." Kamikaze will sing his new hit, “How I sold out to da Man.” Robbie Bell again performs: “Mamas, don't let your babies grow up to be Bells” and “Any friend of Ed Peters is a friend of mine”. After the show, Ms. Bell will autograph copies of her mug shot photos. In a salute to “Dancing with the Stars”, Ms. Bell and Hinds County District Attorney Robert Smith will dance the Wango Tango.

Wrestling returns, except this time it will be a Battle Royal with Othor Cain, Ben Allen, Kim Wade, Haley Fisackerly, Alan Lange, and “Big Cat” Donna Ladd all in the ring at the same time. The Battle Royal will be in a steel cage, no time limit, no referee, and the losers must leave town. Marshand Crisler will be the honorary referee (as it gives him a title without actually having to do anything).


Meet KIM Waaaaaade at the Entergy Tent. For five pesos, Kim will sell you a chance to win a deed to a crack house on Ridgeway Street stuffed in the Howard Industries pinata. Don't worry if the pinata is beaten to shreds, as Mr. Wade has Jose, Emmanuel, and Carlos, all illegal immigrants, available as replacements for the it. Upon leaving the Entergy tent, fig leaves will be available in case Entergy literally takes everything you have as part of its Trollfest ticket price adjustment charge.

Donna Ladd of The Jackson Free Press will give several classes on learning how to write. Smearing, writing without factchecking, and reporting only one side of a story will be covered. A donation to pay their taxes will be accepted and she will be signing copies of their former federal tax liens. Ms. Ladd will give a dramatic reading of her two award-winning essays (They received The Jackson Free Press "Best Of" awards.) "Why everything is always about me" and "Why I cover murders better than anyone else in Jackson".

In the spirit of helping those who are less fortunate, Trollfest '09 adopts a cause for which a portion of the proceeds and donations will be donated: Keeping Frank Melton in his home. The “Keep Frank Melton From Being Homeless” booth will sell chances for five dollars to pin the tail on the jackass. John Reeves has graciously volunteered to be the jackass for this honorable excursion into saving Frank's ass. What's an ass between two friends after all? If Mr. Reeves is unable to um, perform, Speaker Billy McCoy has also volunteered as when the word “jackass” was mentioned he immediately ran as fast as he could to sign up.


In order to help clean up the legal profession, Adam Kilgore of the Mississippi Bar will be giving away free, round-trip plane tickets to the North Pole where they keep their bar complaint forms (which are NOT available online). If you don't want to go to the North Pole, you can enjoy Brant Brantley's (of the Mississippi Commission on Judicial Performance) free guided tours of the quicksand field over by High Street where all complaints against judges disappear. If for some reason you are unable to control yourself, never fear; Judge Houston Patton will operate his jail where no lawyers are needed or allowed as you just sit there for minutes... hours.... months...years until he decides he is tired of you sitting in his jail. Do not think Judge Patton is a bad judge however as he plans to serve free Mad Dog 20/20 to all inmates.

Trollfest '09 is a pet-friendly event as well. Feel free to bring your dog with you and do not worry if your pet gets hungry, as employees of the Jackson Zoo will be on hand to provide some of their animals as food when it gets to be feeding time for your little loved one.

Relax at the Fox News Tent. Since there are only three blonde reporters in Jackson (being blonde is a requirement for working at Fox News), Megan and Kathryn from WAPT and Wendy from WLBT will be on loan to Fox. To gain admittance to the VIP section, bring either your Republican Party ID card or a Rebel Flag. Bringing both and a torn-up Obama yard sign will entitle you to free drinks served by Megan, Wendy, and Kathryn. Get your tickets now. Since this is an event for trolls, no ID is required. Just bring the hate. Bring the family, Trollfest '09 is for EVERYONE!!!

This is definitely a Beaver production.


Note: Security provided by INS.

Trollfest '07

Jackson Jambalaya is the home of Trollfest '07. Catch this great event which promises to leave NE Jackson & Fondren in flames. Sonjay Poontang and his band headline the night with a special steel cage, no time limit "loser must leave town" bout between Alan Lange and "Big Cat"Donna Ladd following afterwards. Kamikaze will perform his new song F*** Bush, he's still a _____. Did I mention there was no referee? Dr. Heddy Matthias and Lori Gregory will face off in the undercard dueling with dangling participles and other um, devices. Robbie Bell will perform Her two latest songs: My Best Friends are in the Media and Mama's, Don't Let Your Babies Grow up to be George Bell. Sid Salter of The Clarion-Ledger will host "Pin the Tail on the Trial Lawyer", sponsored by State Farm.

There will be a hugging booth where in exchange for your young son, Frank Melton will give you a loooong hug. Trollfest will have a dunking booth where Muhammed the terrorist will curse you to Allah as you try to hit a target that will drop him into a vat of pig grease. However, in the true spirit of Separate But Equal, Don Imus and someone from NE Jackson will also sit in the dunking booth for an equal amount of time. Tom Head will give a reading for two hours on why he can't figure out who the hell he is. Cliff Cargill will give lessons with his .80 caliber desert eagle, using Frank Melton photos as targets. Tackleberry will be on hand for an autograph session. KIM Waaaaaade will be passing out free titles and deeds to crackhouses formerly owned by The Wood Street Players.

If you get tired come relax at the Fox News Tent. To gain admittance to the VIP section, bring either your Republican Party ID card or a Rebel Flag. Bringing both will entitle you to free drinks.Get your tickets now. Since this is an event for trolls, no ID is required, just bring the hate. Bring the family, Trollfest '07 is for EVERYONE!!!

This is definitely a Beaver production.

Note: Security provided by INS
.