The Jackson Redevelopment Authority terminated the Farish Street lease with David Watkins:
After years of delays, David Watkins’ Farish Street Group has been jettisoned as developer of the downtown Jackson entertainment hub, leaving the beleaguered project in search of its third leader in the last six years.
Citing missed contractual deadlines, the Jackson Redevelopment Authority last week voted to terminate the group’s lease, ending a troubled five-year relationship with a developer that took over at the beginning of a global economic crisis and was never able to raise the money needed to finish the project.
“In order to move forward, we felt that it was best that we terminate,” JRA board member Mat Thomas said Wednesday.
The downtown entertainment district was once an epicenter of African-American nightlife, but over a period of decades it fell prey to urban decay....
In 2008, in stepped Watkins, fresh off of his success refurbishing the King Edward Hotel. But ultimately, Watkins’ team would face the same problems.
Project leaders giddily announced the first club opening as early as February 2011, a target that came and went. As recently as summer 2012, developers still insisted the first clubs could open soon, but little work has happened since.
JRA officials said in a statement that Farish Street Group owes rent, which may be pursued legally. JRA has not loaned the group any money for construction, the statement said....
The next step for JRA is also unclear. Eventually, the group would likely send out a request for proposals to bring in a developer who can hopefully bring the project across the finish line.
It's about time. Just put this project out of its misery. The money blown on Farish Street would have better served Jackson if it had been spent on the zoo and the surrounding area. Think about it. Over $21 million in gummint money spent on Farish Street and that was before Mr. Watkins became involved with the project. Video of Farish Street.
The city should cut its losses with Farish Street and instead focus on Commerce Street. Here is what should happen:
1. State should revoke the options with Full Spectrum. These clowns will never get the project moving and the state withdrew the $20 million.
2. State should give Malcolm White the option to purchase his building.
3. Give Commerce Street the same 24/7 resort status it gave Farish Street.
4. Commerce doesn't need a bunch of fancy grants and pie in the sky sketches. Allow the free enterprise system to work. There are several establishments now: Martins, The South, Hal and Mals, and Jaco's Tacos. Those are your building blocks. The street is next to the interstate. Access is much easier as it is bounded by Jefferson and North State Streets.
5. Clean up the area a little. That is the proper function of a city. Clean it up, put in some bricks, nice landscaping, and improve the lighting. One warehouse refurbished would make a nice flea market. There are other buildings on Commerce that could be converted to better use if investors see a profit in them. Give the area resort status. Make it easier for private businesses to come in and set up shop.
6. That means the state and Entergy should just sell the parcels. State doesn't need the land, Entergy just sits on what they have but don't use. Sell them. Commerce doesn't need the monster developer to come in with The Plan. Commerce just needs smaller investors to come in and take a chance on opening up businesses. It's worked so far as the succcess of The South, Jaco's, Martin's, and H&M has shown. Make it easier for others to do so..... with their own money.
65 comments:
Uhh, that ain't happening in Chokwe's Kush capital. Public dollars only get spent on projects that have a certain, well, flava in the Bold, New City with Soul. Commerce Street is way to white to get any green from the black overlords. What's your next idea?
Kingfish: Are you kidding? There ain't no Walking around money in your proposal. How's a semi-honest politician going to reward his friendsO of course, they'll make some nice campaign contributions in grateful appreciation? This just ain't gonna happen.
Hard to forget the Prophet's vehement protests and explicative filled temper tantrums over the years here at JJ whenever it was mentioned that Watkins had money problems.
Reminds of when he prophesized that a ballpark was never going to get built in Pearl.
Watkins is already in hot water with Retro Metro. How's he going to get out of both?
Commerce Street is way to white to get any green from the black overlords.
Pure poetry.......glows with the rainbow........
This is what happens when all the sunshine and rainbows clear out and reality comes to the fore. JPS graduates reckon that government has endless supplies of cash, so let's get some of those goodies and leverage white guilt to build a black culture playground in a blighted area.
So plans are made and ridiculous schemes are bandied about and the local hack politicians who got elected by telling their gullible constituents that they'll deliver the goodies become all glassy eyed. Everyone imagines a shiny new street filled with happy faced revelers and bustling businesses and they buy in. No one considers the reality of what it will take not only to get there, but to maintain such a presence for the short and the long term. It's sunshine and rainbows.
There are a few pragmatists out there who suggest that this may not be all it's cracked up to be, but they're shouted down by the faithful and called things like rednecks, haters, racists, etc. The logic and reason in their warnings is ignored and they are chastised by sanctimonious alternative newspaper editors for not being bandwagon groupies.
So the money gets allocated and the first few shovels of dirt are moved and the naive amen chorus swoons and points and sings hymns of secular praise to the gods of government largesse. Meanwhile, people with a grain of fiscal sense continue to warn against profligate spending and romantic boondoggles, but no one listens because they aren't as hip as the enlightened. Plus they're racists.
Then the project gets delayed and the scope is reduced (no loft apartments on Farish), but nobody cares because a REAL TENANT is announced and everybody cheers (BB KING'S IS COMING!) and forgets that the bill of goods they were sold is now about 2/3 of the original plan.
So time passes and delays stretch, but BB King's and you're a racist for not eating it up!
Then, when kickoff parties and galas and press conferences and flashy announcements are a distant memory, the money starts to dry up. Excuses are put forward (bad economy, lack of community support, negative people who don't live in Fondren) and it's always someone else's fault. The ones who get the most blame are those who warned against this foolish effort. Their negativity poisoned the project, or some other rotgut.
So now it's six years on. Money is gone. The beautiful new sidewalks have weeds sprouting between the bricks. The new benches are in need of repair, and miles of chain link fence protect the empty store fronts. Eventually, a local juke joint will open and maybe a barber shop, or a consignment boutique will take up residence for 10 months or so. The rest of the street will rot while the same people are pushing another big time boondoggle in another part of town (The District at Eastover, with apartments and movie theaters and a monorail to Whole Foods!!!!)
It's the circle of life.
Watkins was "over leveraged". Looks like he read one of the books from the 1980's on creative financing. Most of the authors went bankrupt. Will Watkins be able to write a sequel/followup on using other peoples' money to become wealthy?
So will this free up some money so we can get some elly funts for the zoo? LaRita would smile....
Nooooo!!!!!
How many parking lot robots will lose their job because of this?
10:50's post was one of the most eloquent discriptions of Jackson, Mississippi that I have ever read.
I concur with 11:30 about 10:50. Could we bronze his comment and affix it to the City Council chamber wall?
And Kingfish, you are dead on about Commerce Street. The best thing that can happen is to get everybody out of the way of the entrepreneurs. At some point, even the weeds of Farish will be pulled.
The $21m claimed to have been spent on Farish has happened over a 30-year period on projects throughout the entire 60-block historic district. The only portion of which was spent directly on the Entertainment District was $5.5m from the MDA through loans taken out by Elkington. The current group bought those loans from Elkington when it took over the project under the promise that the City would add its own financing. But, to this date, the City has not issued any debt or financing to the project. Any additional money spent has come directly from the developer. So, if you like the project or not, just be clear about what's been spent and by whom.
Watkins had breakfast with Burwell at Primos this morning.
10:50 failed to mention the biggest boondoggle of them all ... the convention center. It has exceeded in each year of operation even the worst case scenario for losses.
The downtown strategy is a shambles and a few more pricey sardine can living units in a old courthouse won't change anything.
11:55, thanks for infor.JRA and the City have O money in the project, right?
Anyone checked the judgment roll sin Hinds to see how much Watkins owes to whom????? Can't be pretty.
When does Ben Allen take the podium?
The level of uninformed guesswork, simpleton comments about free market enterprise in the context of an urban renewal project and political hackery in these attacks on Watkins is staggering. If Farish Street loses all of Watkind work and tax credits, we lose Farish Street. Memories are quite short also. Watkins developed the King Edwards and saved that end of Capitol Street after decades of broken promises by other developers and forked tongue politicians.
Watkins didn't develop King Edward. He rode the coattails of the group from New Orleans. He was kicked out of Retro Metro and the courthouse group was clear to point out it was NOT a Watkins Development project. Something else is going on with Watkins. Something will surface. Something much bigger. This is just setting the stage.
Here is an idiotic statement that 8:06 PM likely bought into without question during one of the Downtown Delusion Tours.
Ben Allen, president of Downtown Jackson Partners, said at the press conference that he has seen figures showing that, with all the residential development downtown in the form of loft apartments and condos, that in 10 years there could be as many as 25,000 people living downtown, tripling traffic on Pearl Street and Pascagoula Street.
-- Mississippi Business Journal
-- March 3, 2008
There must clearly be a lot more going here than discussed. Something tells me this will get "legal" quickly. Ie: ugly.
Well how can it not 9:38. Too much money, time and effort expended. Way too much.
Who is the main "developer now? Anyone?
9 pm, That is one of my favorite quotes from Ben Allen.
"Twenty-Five Thousand people flocking to one bedroom lofts in downtown Jackson" ?
25,000 people. Think about that number for just a moment. That's quite a few young hip progressives !
Over 75% of these lofter's are expected to upgrade to the Harbor Walk condos by 2016.
Ben didn't lie, nor did he deceive. He clearly said "I have SEEN figures....". He didn't say the figures were accurate or would come to pass ~ He just said he'd seen them. Ben is slick.
Watkins, Burwell, Ben and P.T. Barnum were spotted together on the state-fair-midway last nite. They didn't spend any money since they can spot a con-game a mile away.
You're correct @6:48, except what you called "spot[ting] con-games" was actually brainstorming for their next project that will let them look "big time" while spending other people's money -- and yes, even tax dollars are other people's money -- in the District of Kush.
You cannot expect to create/grow a positive community in the throngs of a crime ridden, drug laced, infrastructure deprived cesspool of hate filled lazy sacks of human waste whose only redeeming qualities include interesting ways to die and possible unique positions in porn movies due to an intense desire to plunge their genatalia into any receptive willing moist hole thereby creating an unabated need for the most expensive health care available coupled with an abject inability to pay for as much as a co pay for a doctors visit....
Just an observation...
Here we go again.
Farish Street - bust
Old Capitol Green - bust
King Edward/Standard Life - famously claim waiting lists, but no proof that anyone is lining up to rent anything larger than the cheapest 1 BR, i.e. moderate success
Walthall Hotel renovation - bust
Harborwalk - bust
Lost Rabbit - limping along, but basically a bust
Convention Center - losing money by the bucketful, i.e. bust
Retro Metro - bust
University Place of Jackson - bust
The Plaza Building - not really sure. Website is dark. Tye's and Basil's both closed, certainly not a raging success.
So please explain to me why the District at Eastover is a slam dunk to be a howling success. Please.
@4:42 - You might be racist. I don't know. I just deduce from your posts you are ignorant and talk about things of which you have little or no facts. Hiding behind your anonymity does not mask your prejudice and ignorance.
5:48:
what the hell is racist about that post? harbor walk? lost rabbit? and dont criticize someone for posting anonymously when you post anonymously --
@ 4:42 - How can you call University Place a "bust"? It certainly has more activity than some of the other projects on your list.
The convention center losses are the size of dump trucks. Little bucket-sized losses was the odorous manure the city's "leaders" sold to Jackustan's gullible voting public.
Let's see...
--Parlor Market-success
--Fondren District-success
--new building at Baptist--success
--King Edward-- success (despite your false facts)
--Fairview Inn-success
--Highland Village--yes, WF is a success
--university pace--success (despite your false facts)
--electric building (success
--commerce street business--success
--fortification renovation underway--success
--underground 119 -- success
Was at MS museum of Art festival today. Downtown looked good, museum looked good. I must have missed the performance from the Rankin County ballet group celebrating its 50 th anniversary.
Yeah, the Rankin County ballet group was attending a movie theater in the city limits, followed by a game at the baseball team that plays in the city limits.
The baseball field was a huge tax subsidy. I don't think Rankin County had anything to do with it or the Outlet Malls which are also a boondoggle.
I don't see a bank headquartered in Rankin County as the ad sponsor of the ballpark.
Without Jackson, Rankin County is simply Perry County without the coolness of Camp Shelby firing range.
"...and a few more pricey sardine can living units in a old courthouse won't change anything.
October 4, 2013 at 1:58 PM"
Sardine Can "living units". EXACTLY. I've been online and seen the depressing little sample units. And I've seen the plans.
The same big commercial architecture firms seem to spit out these bleak "living spaces", over and over - for proposals for boondoggles all over the Metro. They all look as if the heads of these firms hand the apartment designs to interns. I'm thinking the interns are fresh out of some Southern cow college, and have not been exposed to very much. Certainly, they have not been exposed to what apartments CAN be. All they've seen is what is in their drab little modernistic textbooks. They have done no research into inspired design. I don't think these kids have ever read a decorating magazine. In fact, I don't think they come from families who even have such magazines on their coffee tables. Bleak little people, designing bleak little "sardine can living units"...
And you can expand what I've just described into aesthetics-as-a-whole for all Downtown projects. They're all BUTT UGLY. They look just like the butt ugly depressing junk that was built Downtown in the Fifties, Sixties, and Seventies. The renderings of the new junk even look like the renderings of the old junk. They're even recycling 1970s scale figures for the "renderings" (Bell-bottomed Hip Huggers are BACK, ya know!)
But I'm thinking these interns get stuck designing these sardine cans, because they're girls, or because the head of the firm thinks a male intern is "kinda femmy", and isn't married with kids and going to First Babdist. "THOSE PEOPLE know about that stuff, don't they?"
And that leads me to a major part of the illogic involved in these projections of huge thongs of downtown renters: "Those People" (who are a landlord's dream, where tenantry is concerned) get out of Mississippi as soon as they can. And the ones who CAN'T, come in three flavors: Closeted Christian Husbands (who live with their frustrated wives, in single-family homes they own), Affluent Gays who stayed because of great jobs (who live in McMansions in Brandon or Madison), and the Losers (who lack the gumption to make it out-of-state, and who, if not living with 'Mama', rent rotting garages in Belhaven, not overpriced "lofts").
So, you've got a major structural flaw, right there: the social and legal climate around Jackson has driven away an easy half of the people who normally would make a downtown "vibrant", and "happening" (and who would rent the pricey little sardine cans).
All I see is bleakness and boondoggles.
@12:34. What on earth are you babbling about? Cities across the country have seen revitalization of downtown living. It isn't driven by just "those people". You do realize marriage is at an all time low in US. Just because someone is single or without children doesn't make them gay.
Great rendition 12:34; the progressives are alive and well.
Fortification Street is a 'success'? Please!
New building at Baptist? Please!
Underground 119? What the fuck is that?
Don't worry, Dearie Precious! I'm sure nobody's pointing a finger at YOU.
"@12:34. What on earth are you babbling about? Cities across the country have seen revitalization of downtown living. It isn't driven by just "those people". You do realize marriage is at an all time low in US. Just because someone is single or without children doesn't make them gay. October 6, 2013 at 1:47 PM"
And, if, as I suspect, you're a saintly-patient mother, nobody here's accusing your 'Handsome and Talented Son'. So, why don't you amble on up those stairs and go take him a nahsss tuneyfish sammich now (being sure to knock on the Bonus Room door, so he'll have time to get off that computer and git his britches back on... in case he's on that Internet agin, with that Fine Christian Girl he's been promising to show you, out in Salt Lake). Just don't count your grandchildren before they hatch... I'm not casting doubt here... just reminding you that he has to git his music career off the ground, first. I have as much faith as you do, that Concert Pianists are in great demand, and It'll be a short hop from the Keyboard-in-the-Attic to a Concert Grand up to the Kennedy Center.
Innyhoo... While "Cities across the Nation have seen revitalization...", Jacktown is not seeing revitalization, and it is not GOING to see revitalization.
Could that possibly be PARTLY because Jackson is in the control of a notoriously homophobic "minority", and in the middle of the most Gay-hating state?
Let's see... Cities that have revitalized have plenty of Gay people. Meanwhile, Jacktown is not ever going to revitalize, and all the Gays who can go GIT GONE.
Hollywood, TriBeCa, French Quarter, Southbeach, Dupont Circle... San Francisco... so many decaying places started their journeys out of oblivion as Gay meccas, and have ended up gentrified/expensive/rented-up-solid. In fact, South Beach developers blatantly set out to attract Gays, to start the gentrification process. You may have noticed that it worked.
Not happening in Jacktown, though. Cause? Effect? Who knows?
@541. I am fairly certain your fascination with gays is symbolic of something. Perhaps you would like a 1 bedroom downtown.
@529 you probably haven't heard of Underground 119 from your spot at Applebee's bar. You should splurge.....get yourself a Michelob.
Milwaukee, Minneapolis, Memphis, Richmond, Winston Salem aren't exactly gay Meccas but have revitalized downtowns.
The best way to get Farish Street going again is to introduce robots. I believe there are a ton of them that are out of work from Old Capitol Green.
I'd like to see a blues club open with a robot band playing such standards as "Born Under a Bad Circuit", "Let the Good Computations Roll", and "Sweet Home Cupertino"
Tell da troof, Danny Mollisack! Where are those robots we were promised?
sorry 8:56 PM, nice try..The Electric Building was forclosed on several months ago....you need to fact check before you (public record) spout off incorrect "fact".
@9:22 You really don't know shit about what you're talking about. Duckworth foreclosed on his own deal. This was a very complex and sophisticated (oops, I guess that where we lost you) transaction, involving Historic Tax Credits that are designed to encourage developers to restore historically significant buildings. Of course, I'm sure that's also over your head. I suppose a couple of double-wides in Nicknar county would suffice for you. Geez, what a dumb ass.
blah! blah! blah! 9:56 PM..a forclosure is a forclosure...you don't pay your bills..you get forclosed on.. are you to stupid to understand that? geez...what a dumb ass!!!! hardy har har!
@1008. You are showing your own ignorance about historic tax credits and ownership entities.
"fact check"
One of the most over used terms on the JFP.
ranks up there with "urban warriors & creatives"
"Milwaukee, Minneapolis, Memphis, Richmond, Winston Salem aren't exactly gay Meccas but have revitalized downtowns. October 6, 2013 at 7:27 PM"
The only town on your list I know about is Minneapolis, which definitely IS a Gay mecca. I've seen headlines on CityData asking "Is Minneapolis the New San Francisco?" Maybe not: but definitely so for the Upper Midwest. And Downtown Minneapolis is actually a vital, happening place - not merely a corpse expensively made-up to look lifelike.
And I think that anyplace stricken with 'Diversity' is going to rely on Gays to keep the Old Inner Suburbs nice (In Memphis' case, that would include Central Gardens). Such places are too dangerous for retirees, and the dangerous schools mean caring parents tend to move elsewhere. So, what middle class groups besides Gays are left to live there?
As for Winston Salem, its metro area has a hundred thousand people fewer than Jackson's. But I compared personal ads on a popular Gay social networking site, and despite the twenty percent difference in populations between metros, Winston Salem had as many profiles as did the Jackson Metro. So while it may not be an actual "Mecca", it would appear to have twenty percent more going on for that group, per capita, than does Jacktown.
And the gist of the other posts seems to be that the Jackson Metro is considered toxic - a place to flee from - by one of the groups who have traditionally been key to 'revivification' of downtowns. I'd imagine the other cities on your list are far less toxic in that regard than is Jackson.
Downtown Omaha is doing fine, and It's a great place to be Gay (there's a Gay Rodeo, which Mississippi does NOT have). And Gays are largely responsible for the revival of Sherman Hill, an area of Victorian homes adjacent Downtown Des Moines.
Anyway, the factors that make Jackson toxic for one important 'gentrifying' group are probably making it toxic for other important groups (like all these "artists" who are going to make things "vibrant").
I hate to break the news, but Ridgeland is quickly building a substitute for Jackson's downtown (only better). I drove through the Township tonight, and all the 'vibe' hoped-for in Jackson is happening at the Township. Actual density! Actual live humans going into eateries - sitting at outdoor tables - wow!!!
As for Jackson, I think 8:49 has the right idea. And in addition to robotic bluesters, there should be robotic customers in these establishments. And robotic shoppers, strolling, day and night... A Cyborg-filled wonderland, populated by Hipsters who will never grow old! (until the government money runs out, and their plastic faces start cracking) Of course an ersatz population would be pointless - but no less pointless, at this point, than any other 'revivification' efforts wasted on the rotting corpse of Jackson.
If I am to understand the last ten or so comments, I reckon the only thang that will save Jacktown is to replace Dannys' billboards with rainbows and = signs. That should draw untold thousands of the pink slipper crowd in. Just what we need. I'll open an orange-wig shop. Romantic Adventures on 80 under the stack will offer franchises.
Gay Rodeo ?? for real ?
What's the main event, bare back bull riding ?
Yeah, what Jackson needs is a huge gay community. That's what'll get it going! Let's start with a gay rodeo, then a gay parade, followed by a gay state fair. We could turn Farish Street into a gay district, with seventeen gay bars. That would allow us to proceed with Old Capitol Green (renamed Old Capitol Rainbow) where we could employ gay robots. We could bring back Jubilee JAM! and call it Jubilee YUM! and make it a "gay festival of oral delights" with food from the Pizza Shack and Keifer's. We'll hang rainbow flags from all the buildings and turn Smith Park into a clothing free zone so the gay community can parade about in the buff like that gay guy on Survivor. If any citizens or churches stand up to this, we'll start by calling them names (hell, the JFP has been doing it for years), then we'll arrest them.
Anything to get downtown revitalized, right?
Sounds like the Rankin County contingent is hankering for gay rodeo. I just can't quit you.
Hey, look, everything else Jackson has tried ended in failure.
You can't compare Jackson to these other Cities where the downtown is making a comeback. In other places around the country, like Atlanta, people simply moved to the suburbs. Here, people are leaving the State. And they aren't going to come back.
Gee, 'Fabulous!!!!!', you sure do know a lot ABOUT it.
Your post reminded me of this little tidbit from the 10/6 12:34 post, above:
"...the ones who CAN'T (get out of Mississippi), come in three flavors: Closeted Christian Husbands (who live with their frustrated wives, in single-family homes they own)..."
You, too, 'Gomorrah'.
Just sayin'...
"Dixie National said...Gay Rodeo ?? for real ? What's the main event, bare back bull riding ? October 7, 2013 at 8:46 AM"
Yes. For real. And if you really did Rodeo, you'd know the IGRA is the second largest Rodeo organization (of any kind) in the WORLD. (There's a Wikipedia page, in case you're wondering) And there are other Gay Rodeo associations.
But if you were a Rodeo pro, you'd know about it, since plenty people compete in both 'mainstream' and IGRA events.
Mostly, they're just regular rodeos (minus all the giant corporate sponsor logos cluttering up the bigtime Vegas-style 'mainstream' events). And lots of Women compete. The atmosphere is family oriented, and whole families attend.
It's 'country', and many of the participants are from poor/rural/farm backgrounds. So, yes, there are 'Drag Queens', in the 'pageant' parts. Otherwise, most events are indistinguishable from any other authentic country Rodeo.
Most states have one. Some states have several. Mississippi has NONE. I'd fly up to the ones in the Midwest. But I realized that these are real country people, whose lives have nothing to do with mine (our family "farm" is a cluster of Delta corporations). Even if I did meet the 'Rancher of my Dreams' there, we'd have too little in common.
In any event, if you really did Rodeo, you'd know that (except for Dixie National, the most socially repressed Rodeo on the whole Circuit) the 'mainstream' Rodeo World is chock-full of all sorts of extracurricular fun, and that most of the fellas are extremely adventurous. And it's been that way since the days of the Old West. Actually, the Gay Rodeos are much more wholesome than the mainstream ones (very little drinking/smoking/drugs). There's just nice places for nice country people to meet.
But as it relates to Jackson, this is just one of many areas in life, where you look out across the Mississippi horizon, and see a never-ending expanse of NOTHING.
Just one of many reasons for moving somewhere far away, like 2:10 says.
GOOD.
Watkins has put $4.7M of his own money in Farish and controls over $5M in tax credits. jRA and the City have not put in one dime. There is now a $5M lien on the property. If engineers had not found a $1.8M flaw in the BB King foundation last June, 5-7 clubs/restaurants would be open now. $30M in annual revenue. Boot Watkins and we say goodbye to Farish Street. (Oh, his partners did out in $200k--half of which was borrowed from him. One of them got sued for it last week). I think JRA and Mayor will see the light. They want Farish Street.
Yes. For real. And if you really did Rodeo, you'd know the IGRA is the second largest Rodeo organization (of any kind) in the WORLD. (There's a Wikipedia page, in case you're wondering) And there are other Gay Rodeo associations.
Bullshit. It's not even in the top 20... maybe 50 rodeo associations in the world
7:58. Watkins "partners" are black developer wanna bes other than Jason Goree. A bunch of Whiney ass hacks screaming the race card at every turn, and making their way on the coat tails of white real developers. Do I need to name them by name?
"Bullshit. It's not even in the top 20... maybe 50 rodeo associations in the world October 7, 2013 at 8:24 PM"
From the IGRA-affiliated Arizona organization's website:
"AGRA was founded in 1985 and is a member of the International Gay Rodeo Association (IGRA), the second largest rodeo association in the world."
Well, this thread has swung several different ways but time to call it quits as it has nothing to do with the post itself. Y'all had your fun.
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