Dr. Stacey Klutts addressed the question of whether natural immunity was superior to the covid-19 vaccine in this August 15 Facebook post. He is the Chief of Pathology and Laboratory Service for the Central Iowa VA Healthcare System. He is also a Clinical Associate Professor of Pathology and Clinical Microbiology at the University of Iowa.
Hello everyone! In the course of the overwhelming response to my post and column, I have had one question come up over and over again. Summarizing the various versions, it is basically this:
This is a very understandable question with a fairly complicated answer. I'll do my best to keep it simple and leave the more detailed, complex explanations to others in links.
First, I want to clearly acknowledge that natural immunity after an infection with SARS-CoV-2 is not nothing. You are indeed much better protected against severe outcomes than if you have never seen the virus at all. However, that's not really the question. The question really is this:
"Am I protected as well as those who were never infected but have been fully vaccinated and do I significantly benefit from getting vaccinated myself, specifically in regards to the Delta variant?"
The short answer (that isn't that short): The sum of the data over a number of publications directed at that question suggest that you are not quite as protected as the vaccinated person and that you do benefit from vaccine. However, this is mostly being extrapolated from what we know about the vaccine in relationship to other variants. We don't yet have much data specifically with the Delta variant and this question, but I think one can pretty safely assume that the data from the other variants is relevant.
One publication addressing the question (again not on Delta, specifically) is very new and can found here: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7032e1.htm This study showed about a 2-fold protective effect for reinfection in those that had been vaccinated after a previous infection as compared to those who just had a previous infection alone.
The other publications are summarized nicely by Katelyn Jetalina on Your Local Epidemiologist (or YLE) here: https://yourlocalepidemiologist.substack.com/.../natural... As promised, I would leave the more complex explanations to others. I will not reiterate her nice summary, but I strongly encourage you to read it if you are so interested. Gist: The antibody response to the vaccine is more coordinated and effective overall in producing neutralizing antibodies as compared to a single previous infection.
So, if I'm advising my family member or best friend on this question, I'd tell them that they are very likely going to have to walk through a wall of fire here soon and that there is a full set of firefighter turnout gear hanging on the wall. They can risk the fire walk with the incomplete gear they are wearing, but I'd advise to just go ahead and put on the full suit that will almost certainly get them through the flames safely. Indeed, I have good friends who had COVID back in the fall and have now been vaccinated, at least somewhat secondary to my advice.
Do I think that we need more data to fully address this question, at least with the Delta variant? That's also a yes. I'm personally curious as to why a previously infected person doesn't have better throat mucosal immunity for blocking the virus from binding. That's a tough question to get at, as measuring mucosal IgA isn't easy, but the protection after a single infection doesn't appear to be great.
So, the story will continue to evolve. That's science. Fortunately, many elements of the overall story are a 'Choose Your Own Adventure' book, and we really can pick a path that leads to more happy endings. Please strongly consider getting vaccinated if you have not yet done so.
Stay safe, stay well, everyone!
34 comments:
I have two vaccine shots and will be getting booster. I have spoken to many MS ‘s who have gotten COVID after vaccines. They basically had a bad head cold or two days. I do not want to be hospitalized, or on breathing apparatus, (as many without vacs are) and have underlying health condition. A virus is not political, has no agenda other than to infect a human. Please think about it MS.
Science, schmience.
Pass the natty lite and the Covid hoax please. Election was rigged.
Well, Mr. Natural Immunity is a fixin' to pitch a fit about this one. He's been blathering for 6 months about how we all need to just run out, French kiss a Covid carrier, and lick the toilets at motels on Hwy 80 to "build up our immune systems." He shore won't be happy.
All the pitch and hype on getting the shot and I have not seen ANY data on the long term effect of this experimental shot. I have had my blood tested lately and I have a very high natural antibody from having the Chinese Virus in November of last. I would like for anybody that had the shot in November of last year to have their blood tested to see their immunity level, if any. Looks like our gov would have studied natural vs the shot. Huuuum
So I;m guessing there is some guessing going on.
MS Against Mandates
Rally Sat at Smith Park
12 to 6
What mandates are in Mississippi? Just the Ole Miss medical school?
On Nov 21st my Mom & I tested positive for Covid. The following week my Dad, brother & sister-in-law tested positive.
I was the only one with every symptom you can imagine (my fever got up to 106) but I was to afraid to go to the hospital.
My Mom (with no symptoms) had a pulmonary embolism on Dec1st, twenty-three days before her Christmas Eve birthday.
So judge me all you'd like, I'm not getting the vaccine.
Natural for 2000 Alex😳
Lost a friend recently to COVID. He was young… unfortunately not vaxxed. Yes, he had some underlying conditions, but he was a beast of a man. Think of your kids folks. I know he was in his final moments.
Why couldn't the man just say, "We don't know".
@11:14pm - Sorry about your mom, but are you sure you didn’t have a stroke? 106 fever can cause brain damage. Because I’m not sure how anything you said relates, good or bad, to the vaccine. Yet you said you’re not getting it. I’m confused. Are you relating the Covid PE your mom died from to the vaccine? (Which wasn’t available at the time). I’m trying really hard to figure this out.
I do not get this-yeah but he had underlying conditions as a distinction to support being unvaccinated..
If you know you have “underlying conditions“ then get vaccinated to avoid a covid death.
If you do not know whether you have “underlying conditions” then being unvaccinated and risking a covid death seems stupid.
Great Post KF!
My personal experience: I tested positive on July 23, 2021, and was admitted to St. D's in Jackson on August 1 with COVID-induced viral pneumonia. I was a sick dude, and ended up losing 22 lbs in just over 14 days (mostly from dehydration). When I was being examined by the hospitalist for discharge from the hospital, I was informed that they were admitting both vaccinated and unvaccinated patients to the extent that they had beds available and their conditions warranted hospitalization. I was NOT vaccinated. Though I'm sure I have plenty of antibodies, I WILL get the vaccine around late November.
Everyone has to make their own decision about the vaccine. My bout with COVID changed my mind.
I'm glad to see more and more data coming out that gives each of us more information so that we can make a more informed decision about vaccines.
My observations about COVID and the various medical treatments: The doctors still don't have a good handle on how to treat this. I received different information in the medical clinic than I received in the hospital concerning the infusion and concerning treatment of the virus. Our doctors and nurses are trying to play catch-up on the unknown and ever-changing COVID variants.
There is more data out there than most will admit. Washington University in St. Louis has a study that shows natural immunity is sufficient and can be life-long. It's a bone marrow study not blood tests. You can find it on the internet. NIH is quoted on their own website as saying that "we hope we see a response from vaccinations that we have seen in those who have had a mild case.." so they even know.
Then there are people like Singing River Health on the coast. They released information that said of all the people they had tested and that tested positive, only 1% were reinfections (less than breakthrough infections of 10%). Then they state that of all the people that have been hospitalized in any of their hospitals, only one....yes, one...was a reinfection. Not one percent...one person..
So where is UMMC's data, Baptist, St. D? How many reinfections have been hospitalized in their system. You and I both know that if natural immunity was not sufficient to prevent hospitalization, they would have that statistic plastered everywhere like they do all other statistics on Covid. Dobbs would have a tracker on his website like he does everything else. If they did, that would encourage those who believe natural immunity is sufficient to maybe get vaccinated. But they don't provide those statistics. Seriously ask yourself why they don't. They know the data...but don't provide it. Why is that?
Remove Fauci and the whole country within days will become saner and more calm.
11:01 : You kidding ? Hinds County has a vaccine mandate they haven't enforced.....yet. If they do essential employees to the everyday works will leave.This includes law enforcement. If you think it's a sh!it show now ? Wait until these employees are replaced by a niece or nephew of whoever. And this looks as if this boils down to 22 million in funds they can't spend unless they follow federal guidelines(vaccine mandates or no money). Same with Hinds County Schools.
@8:45 - you could put a muzzle on a couple Republican extremists and get even better results.
9:47 : Ok, name one. Fauci thinks he's God and Don Lemon backs that assertion. That is how fugged up this country is right now. Anthony Fauci along with some very rich peoples money created this virus !
... put a muzzle on a couple Republican extremists and get even better results.
Who? Name them.
Sooo
Do we follow this guys science, or someone who isn’t a proven liar?
“ BREAKING: NIH Director Francis Collins Resigns After Documents Reveal He Lied About His Involvement with Gain-of-Function Research in Wuhan Lab”
12:18 : Tony "The God" Fauci decides for many that comment here.
8:45: I suspect you and your ilk were crazy long before COVID, so I doubt removing Fauci will have much beneficial effect. You'll just move on to your next obsession.
Why is it that people who value their constitutional rights are the ones who are labeled "crazies", "extremists", etc.?
Asking for a friend.
Ivermectin solves all problems.
KF - you could make a fortune selling tin foil hats to most of your regular readers.
2:59 : Kissing ass of the site owner much ?
Most dysfunctional pandemic ever.
The fusion of Politics and Medicine was abysmal.
Do not recommend.
2 stars, said this Yelp reviewer
Meanwhile....
"Vaccine experts advise the White House to ABANDON its plan to provide Covid booster shots to all Americans in yet another setback for the Biden administration's rollout
On September 27, outside advisors had a call with federal officials where they advised the White House to drop plans to give all Americans vaccine boosters
Dr Anthony Fauci was on the call, and pushed back against the advice from the outsiders (Imagine That!)
The White House unveiled plans for booster shots in late August, but opposition from regulators and experts have become road blocks
The Pfizer booster is currently available to all Americans aged 65 or older or who have a condition or job that puts them at serious risk from the virus
Some advisors to the CDC and FDA oppose universally available boosters as limited evidence is available that they are needed ""
Can anyone tell me what the current reinfection rate is?
Specifically for a Covid recovered, unvaccinated person.
Thank you very much!
People wanting 'data on long term effects of vaccine' are likely the same people who:
! Didn't think science had proved smoking was linked to cancer
!! Thought wearing seat belts would kill lots of people - unconscious people after an accident and either car sinking in a lake or car on fire
!!! Thought airbags would injure and kill more people than they would save
!!!! Thought paint was way better when in still had lead in it. Gasoline too!
76% of September Vermont Covid-19 deaths are vax breakthroughs
@4:53. Thanks for spreading truth. All the deniers can check out Dr. Peter McCullough, Dr Jane Ruby, Dr Robert Malone and many others. Do your research. YOU can still get it, YOU can still spread it. The lie about 'not getting as sick or hospitalized' is easy to see when you look at Vermont data. Check out Israel and Gibraltar data ... the vaxxed are spreading it. Y'all have fun with that.
9:20....they will not give you that information because....well, ask them. If it supported the shot you know it would be plastered everywhere. but it's a secret and you have to wonder why.
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