Once a beacon of learning in America, NYU is now a cesspool of the spoiled as students got one of the top professors in Organic Chemistry fired because he was too hard. Guess what, buttercups? Organic Chemistry is what separates the med-school bound from the wannabes. Think of it as a boot camp of sorts for pre-meds. The New York Times reported:
In the field of organic chemistry, Maitland Jones Jr. has a storied reputation. He taught the subject for decades, first at Princeton and then at New York University, and wrote an influential textbook. He received awards for his teaching, as well as recognition as one of N.Y.U.’s coolest professors.
But last spring, as the campus emerged from pandemic restrictions, 82 of his 350 students signed a petition against him.
Students said the high-stakes course — notorious for ending many a dream of medical school — was too hard, blaming Dr. Jones for their poor test scores.
The professor defended his standards. But just before the start of the fall semester, university deans terminated Dr. Jones’s contract.The officials also had tried to placate the students by offering to review their grades and allowing them to withdraw from the class retroactively....
Did the school also pass out participation trophies? It doesn't matter because professors accused the school of caring about only one thing: the bottom line and the bottom line was profits, not education.
“The deans are obviously going for some bottom line, and they want happy students who are saying great things about the university so more people apply and the U.S. News rankings keep going higher,” said Paramjit Arora, a chemistry professor who has worked closely with Dr. Jones.
In short, this one unhappy chemistry class could be a case study of the pressures on higher education as it tries to handle its Gen-Z student body. Should universities ease pressure on students, many of whom are still coping with the pandemic’s effects on their mental health and schooling? How should universities respond to the increasing number of complaints by students against professors? Do students have too much power over contract faculty members, who do not have the protections of tenure?
Heaven forbid this generation ever gets drafted into a war. Hmm.... on second thought, maybe that's the best thing for them.
And how hard should organic chemistry be anyway?
Dr. Jones, 84, is known for changing the way the subject is taught. In addition to writing the 1,300-page textbook “Organic Chemistry,” now in its fifth edition, he pioneered a new method of instruction that relied less on rote memorization and more on problem solving.
I've got news for you. There is no easy way to teach Organic. Sn1, EAS, Free-Radical Substitutions, you name it, none of it is easy. Frankly, Organic is the last class to learn "by rote." It requires the student to think. There are times when it should be called chemistry philosophy. Guess what? There is nothing easy about any of the higher level chemistries. A successful pre-med student needs Organic to understand oh, something such as Biochemistry. Organic is on the MCAT as well so it might behoove the little darlings to learn it because they are going to need to know it and know it well.
Unfortunately for the professor, he was on the front lines of the decline of American education:
About a decade ago, he said in an interview, he noticed a loss of focus among the students, even as more of them enrolled in his class, hoping to pursue medical careers.
“Students were misreading exam questions at an astonishing rate,” he wrote in a grievance to the university, protesting his termination. Grades fell even as he reduced the difficulty of his exams.
The problem was exacerbated by the pandemic, he said. “In the last two years, they fell off a cliff,” he wrote. “We now see single digit scores and even zeros.”
After several years of Covid learning loss, the students not only didn’t study, they didn’t seem to know how to study, Dr. Jones said.
What does one expect when their faces are buried in their phones all the time and they consider reading Wikipedia to be serious research. The professor tried to help his young charges but did so for naught.
To ease pandemic stress, Dr. Jones and two other professors taped 52 organic chemistry lectures. Dr. Jones said that he personally paid more than $5,000 for the videos and that they are still used by the university.
That was not enough. In 2020, some 30 students out of 475 filed a petition asking for more help, said Dr. Arora, who taught that class with Dr. Jones. “They were really struggling,” he explained. “They didn’t have good internet coverage at home. All sorts of things.”
The professors assuaged the students in an online town-hall meeting, Dr. Arora said.
Many students were having other problems. Kent Kirshenbaum, another chemistry professor at N.Y.U., said he discovered cheating during online tests.
When he pushed students’ grades down, noting the egregious misconduct, he said they protested that “they were not given grades that would allow them to get into medical school.”
By spring 2022, the university was returning with fewer Covid restrictions, but the anxiety continued and students seemed disengaged.
“They weren’t coming to class, that’s for sure, because I can count the house,” Dr. Jones said in an interview. “They weren’t watching the videos, and they weren’t able to answer the questions.”
Strap yourself in because Dr. Jones tries to fight foolishness with reason:
“We are very concerned about our scores, and find that they are not an accurate reflection of the time and effort put into this class,” the petition said.
The students criticized Dr. Jones’s decision to reduce the number of midterm exams from three to two, flattening their chances to compensate for low grades. They said that he had tried to conceal course averages, did not offer extra credit and removed Zoom access to his lectures, even though some students had Covid. And, they said, he had a “condescending and demanding” tone.
“We urge you to realize,” the petition said, “that a class with such a high percentage of withdrawals and low grades has failed to make students’ learning and well-being a priority and reflects poorly on the chemistry department as well as the institution as a whole.”
Dr. Jones said in an interview that he reduced the number of exams because the university scheduled the first test date after six classes, which was too soon.
On the accusation that he concealed course averages, Dr. Jones said that they were impossible to provide because 25 percent of the grade relied on lab scores and a final lab test, but that students were otherwise aware of their grades.
As for Zoom access, he said the technology in the lecture hall made it impossible to record his white board problems.
At least some people had some backbone:
Zacharia Benslimane, a teaching assistant in the problem-solving section of the course, defended Dr. Jones in an email to university officials.
“I think this petition was written more out of unhappiness with exam scores than an actual feeling of being treated unfairly,” wrote Mr. Benslimane, now a Ph.D. student at Harvard. “I have noticed that many of the students who consistently complained about the class did not use the resources we afforded to them.”
Students might be ........ lazy? Who would have thunk it?
Other students, though, seemed shellshocked from the experience. In interviews, several of them said that Dr. Jones was keen to help students who asked questions, but that he could also be sarcastic and downbeat about the class’s poor performance.
After the second midterm for which the average hovered around 30 percent, they said that many feared for their futures. One student was hyperventilating.
But students also described being surprised that Dr. Jones was fired, a measure the petition did not request and students did not think was possible.
Welcome to reality, brats. Guess what? Words mean things. However, the university is looking at watering things down even more:
James W. Canary, chairman of the department until about a year ago, said he admired Dr. Jones’s course content and pedagogy, but felt that his communication with students was skeletal and sometimes perceived as harsh.
“He hasn’t changed his style or methods in a good many years,” Dr. Canary said. “The students have changed, though, and they were asking for and expecting more support from the faculty when they’re struggling.”
N.Y.U. is evaluating so-called stumble courses — those in which a higher percentage of students get D’s and F’s, said John Beckman, a spokesman for the university.
“Organic chemistry has historically been one of those courses,” Mr. Beckman said. “Do these courses really need to be punitive in order to be rigorous?” Rest of article
Guess what, knucklehead? Organic Chemistry is a hard subject. There is no easy way to teach it unless you are just passing students through.
I wonder how they would have done on Dr. Valente's NMR tests. No notes, no tables, and oh yes, you have to give the structure, not just name the type of compound. That &*$(# $*#&!er gave us our mid-term exam at 2 PM the on the Friday before spring break. You can just imagine the shrieks if that happened to this bunch.
The horrifying part is most of these students plan on going to med school. What are they doing to do when they start flunking Biochem or gross? What happens when they suck on the MCAT because they sucked in class?
Reality is going to be a bitch for these brats and it's going to come for them sooner rather than later.
39 comments:
There are/were "kick-out" courses that dot the path of almost every degree. I guess that will no longer be allowed in this modern world.
I already just assume that millennial healthcare workers are going to just let me die because I am a vocally patriotic far-right nationalist.
I give it another 5 years or so for the MCAT (GMAT and LSAT, too, for that matter) to be tossed aside because they are "too hard," or "racist," "transphobic," or "not woke enough." Beware the doctor who isn't required to master tough subject matter (eg, organic chemistry and the like) before he lays hands on you. You'll have to take comfort in knowing his feelings weren't hurt as he made his way to your bedside.
Why shouldn’t students expect more support? They are faced with skyrocketing tuition, intense pressure and facing the most extreme learning situations in history. It wasn’t their fault that schools basically shut down for 2 years. Ask junior high and high school teachers what they’re seeing in schools that went along with indefinite shut downs and remote learning.
The students had 2 years of their lives ripped away, they’re struggling to succeed, and their future rests on their performance in this class.
You try to take online classes with bad internet for 2 years and see how well you perform in organic chemistry.
This topic is getting hotter. It bleeds into affirmative action programs admitting underqualified students. The consequences are evident to those who use their medical services.
The old saw is "what do you call the lowest graduate from med school?"
The answer is doctor.
A possible, more appropriate answer may be, "thank you; goodbye"
From what I have seen in the past 5 years, I am tempted to ask physicians about their graduation rank.
I wish my experience was unique but I see no indication it is.
RMQ
2:34
Thanks for that excellent example of what’s wrong with our country.
Do you know how you address a person who graduated last in his class in medical school?
Doctor
Organic Chem is to med students what Differential Equations is to engineering students (and economics majors where they have a real school of economics). Every major needs one of these - and many of the minor school players don't use them. But its a telling when what is supposed to be a real school such as NYU gives in to this crap.
I have an engineering degree, and have remained happy for decades now that I chose one that did not require anything beyond Chem I. That stuff is hard, because it's hard.
Artificial Intelligence will render the vast majority of them obsolete. Imagine all the savings big pharma can pass along to us without having to pay all those illegal kickbacks!
3:05
Engineering grad here as well. Differential equations 1 and 2 were not that bad. At Miss State the guy I took it from wrote the textbook we used. Pretty good fellow and really knew his stuff but, you could tell he was tired of teaching and ready to retire.
Now Physics was another matter. Bunch of dickheads in that dept. Thermodynamics was a really cool class. I had to take 1 and 2. The prof was a great guy. Very funny. Al Ware was his name IIRC.
Most of the profs were OK, but they were all very hard. No extra credit. Occasionally one would let you drop your lowest grade.
I made it through but, would not do it again. I still have dreams of being in school with impossible deadlines to meet.
The good news is that the 2:34's of the world will also be the first to file lawsuits when these average-at-best Doctors kill grandma because...well, Organic Chem was too hard and the Scamdemic made us sad.
I personally knew I was not smart enough to pass PreMed course work so I chose a different career.
Hope these "just make it easy on the kids" attitudes keep that vibe when these kiddos are performing your surgery.
I was a student many years back at Mississippi State University. The first day of Physics (Calculas physics), The professor told us to look at the person seated on either side of us.
Then he said, "There are three sections of Physics I and only two sections of Physics II scheduled for next semester. One of my responsibilities as instructor in this course will be to fail 1/3 of you so there will be room for those who want to take Physics II."
Then he laughed and said, "Physics III will take care of itself."
I would guess 3 out of every 10 people in my Physics class were Premed majors. What I learned that semester was that premed majors would have prostituted their momma to pass Physics I. Many of them did not. Of course, quite a few future Engineers and Chemists also failed the class. At the end of the semester, I heard Professor Kennedy met his goal of a 33% failure rate in the three sections of Physics I that he taught.
Dr. Clyde Q. Sheley, PhD did the same in Freshman Chemistry. Honestly, I found Organic Chemistry under Dr. Barker to be a very enjoyable class. P-Chem (Junior year) was a bear. Quantium Mechanics (Sort of like P-Chem, except Physics and not Chemistry - senior year) was an excellent way of sorting out successful wannabe scientists from the others.
The current generation of college kids scares the hell out of me. They think the university owes them a lot more than the university owed me when I came through. Of course, I carried a slide rule to class, and never had a take home exam, or any way to rate a professor.
Organic Chemistry is challenging bc it's something that you have never seen before in school and it's thrown at you at a fast pace which is great preparation for professional school. You will experience that with Med Neuro, physics, quantum chemistry and Pharmacology. Personally I think all of those are harder than Gross Anatomy. If the class is that awful just drop it and retake with another professor or at another school that's compatible with your school so you can get credit/maintain your GPA.
Organic Chemistry is hard. It is hard because you actually have to grasp, understand, and apply.
It the fields that require it, you will not get anywhere without this knowledge.
Buckle up buttercups and welcome to hard stuff.
what is a bedwetter?
Teacher should’ve put his lessons on IG, Tik-Tok, or OnlyFans. The current batch of idiots could’ve learned then.
Organic chemistry is why I didn’t study chemical engineering. I, however, loved differential equations I and II
Should we blame the millennial snowflakes or the boomer parents who raised them to be so?
to 5;54...........anyone who has too ask that question is one.now you know.
Stop.
Not a single doctor uses organic chemistry in their daily practice:
Yea it’s important but it’s not the end all be all of medicine.
6:28
Yes.
Wait until those who complained are sued for malpractice for not understanding the chemistry of the human body...
The several hundred that didn't complain will be thankful for their instructor..
How many of you (including you, Kingfish) actually had this professor?
Because if not, how do you know this action isn’t warranted? It’s not 1964, and college doesn’t cost $7 per semester like it did when y’all went to school. Considering the amount of crippling debt one must take on to go to school these days, the least these students should get—in addition to an education—is a fighting chance to actually pass the class, not flunk it because some hardo professor wants to fail half the class.
Is that the Dr. Valente at MC in the 80s? If so, had him sophomore year and earned two Cs thereby removing me from the world of medicine. Wore the same tie every day…..brown tweed that was horizontal at the bottom. Good times. His class was hard.
There's a difference between difficult subject material and bad teaching. I had more than one professor who made the class a lot harder than it needed to be.
I got a solid B grade in organic chemistry. It was probably the hardest class I ever took. It helped that I had basic chemistry in high school so I had some idea of what I was studying and applying in the college classes. Modern day kids often take micky mouse courses in high school and are unprepared for the rigors of college level courses. School administrators have dummied down high school course requirements which used to include chemistry, biology, advanced math classes and world history. At the first law firm where I practiced law, I was the only attorney who had taken chemistry. In fact, I was the only attorney (out of 8) who had ever taken science classes in high school and college. One of the younger attorneys once asked me how I knew the chemical symbols for the elements. He had never heard of the periodic chart. I moved on to another law firm after that revelation.
I don't use Constitutional Law in my daily practice. But, the hard-ass I took it from in undergrad laid a foundation for me that was beyond the subject matter of the course. This was back in the 1990s and some students used to complain about him.
Last week I tried a case in front of an arbitrary, intemperate old judge, well beyond his expiration date, who didn't give a damn about anybody's feelings or my rights.
I believe my client benefited greatly from my ability to not take it personally and do my job, regardless of how badly I believe I was treated by the old codger. I hope that my doctor could do the same.
The majority of the medical mafia are corrupt. The computer tells them what to do, what drug to prescribe, etc. They follow the 'rules' and do what the screen says. Doesn't take organic chemistry for any doctor today - but it should. Insurance companies are the 'doctor'. They decide on payment for every procedure and 'doctors' wouldn't dream of doing anything that didn't pay the most. They would never step out of the insurance box even if it would benefit the patient. Unless they're going into surgery and need a hands on skill ... any idiot can be a doctor now days. Type in the problem, read the screen and do what it tells you to.
That's what I thought.
11:09
Absolutely totally compared apples to oranges.
Memorizing archaic con law cases for a drunk jerk at ole miss is one thing …..organic chemistry is entirely different as it relates to medicine.
Having a doctor who passed organic is nice ….he is smart. But he will never ever use it in practice. He has no idea what’s in modern drugs and relies entirely on the Patrick Ridgeways of the world to tell him what the drugs actually do. Think about that. Your doctor does no independent testing of the latest drug. He has no time or ability to proof the drugs using his independent knowledge of the chemical composition of the latest drugs.
Organic chemistry is a very important concept but it should not be the barrier that stops someone from going to medical school in todays medical world.
Con law is more important to law practice and is actually used in every day practice if only for a check list of issues to spot. Organic plays no such role.
10:04 Organic Chemistry trains one how to think analytically. Does my doctor use Organic Chemistry when he evaluates my medical issues? Probably not. Will learning Organic Chemistry give my doctor the analytic skills to determine how best to treat my medical issues? Yes.
Except you need it for Biochem and Biochem is slightly important.
@12:54 PM
Most clinical Medical Doctors will be the first jobs made obsolete by AI. Several years ago IBM proudly announced that their Watson Supercomputer AI was significantly more accurate than a human doctor. If I remember correctly, it never once misdiagnosed a patient, and found a lot of health issues that human doctors missed. It simply has flawless memory and instant access to the latest medical data and patient records and test results.
4:57: Based on your comment, you must be both a practicing physician and a practicing attorney. You must be busy.
Clearly you missed my point. It had nothing to do with the subject matter of the class and everything to do with the professor, which is actually the subject of the post by KF.
See also the comment at 5:38 for more information.
-11:09
6:32 pm
Yes I am.
7:48, Maybe you should try seminary next.
If you've already been to seminary, then I suggest you build a church where you can be properly worshiped.
7:48 And where lies are forgiven.
Way back in the 1960's when I was in college, my friends and I were amazed at the number of people taking remedial classes. If a person is not ready or capable of college level work, they need to do something else. Bonehead English and basic math have no place in college.
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