Sunday, September 22, 2019

To Open-Carry or not Open-Carry....

Suffer the open-carry zealots.  Tom Knighton over at takes them on in a piece criticizing open-carry:

In any group, you’re going to have a handful of people who will seemingly go out of their way to push the boundaries and will usually end up screwing things up for everyone. These are the kind of people who take “casual Friday” beyond jeans or even shorts and show up in pajamas and bunny slippers.

This leads to HR telling everyone that casual Friday has a dress code…if it’s not canceled outright. Those who forced the change are usually the first to complain about how awful and unfair it was, all while failing to acknowledge their role in things.

In the gun community, we’ve got people like that too.

Over at Gun Free Zone, my buddy Miguel has an open letter to those folks:

First, let’s make something clear, we have two distinct groups: Open Carry Citizens (the ones that understand both Rights and Responsibilities) and Open Carry Idiots (the ones that go full tactical rifle, plate carrier and 20 magazines to show off at the local Dairy Queen) . This is addressed to the second lot.…

[Open Carry Idiots] OCI is the opposite. They want controversy. They want their mention in the Six O’clock news under a negative banner as if they wanted to show off in Social Media as victims of Fake News. An OCI seems to think: “A mass shooter with a rifle kills a bunch of people in a Walmart? Hell, fuck being polite, I am gonna dress just like the caricature of a Gun Owner, go out in the street parading, sporting an attitude and see what happens. Maybe I can be famous too” which if you think about it, it is supposedly the same mentality that Mass Killers have: The seeking of fame and recognition.

So, again, we are sick of your stupid stunts. So far the pushback was been from privately-owned (as in property rights) business politely asking not to open carry. But Stupid Cousin being stupid and doing something outstandingly moronic at one of these places, we are expecting the asking to be upgraded to prohibiting Open Carry and that is if we are lucky and then don’t decided to go all the way to include Concealed Carry in the ban.

Go read the whole thing. I’m begging you to do so. Go read it, then come back here.

Done? Great.

I want to echo was Miguel says here because, frankly, I’m sick of the stupid.

“Oh, I have a right to do this!”

Sure, to a point. Those stores have property rights and you’re cruising here buster. You’re about half a heartbeat from screwing it up for everyone else. As someone who falls into the “everyone else” category, I take exception to that brand of stupidity.

Also understand that because you have a right to do something, it doesn’t mean you have an obligation to do so. You may have a right to walk around town like you’re a heavily-armed extra from a war movie, but that shouldn’t be taken to mean that it’s something you should do for kicks on a slow Saturday afternoon.

There are times when doing that may make sense. Times of intense civil unrest where a sidearm just isn’t enough for you to be comfortable, for example. At a time like that, you may need to carry an AR-15 to Walmart. At a time like that, people might even be more understanding of you doing so, especially if you’re not trying to look like the most tricked out airsofter at the milsim game while doing it.

However, that’s not going to be possible because some people can’t differentiate between “can” and “should.”

Look, I get the concept of trying to normalize open carry. I get it. While I’m not completely sure I agree with it, I don’t mind it.

That’s not what this is about. This is about the dipsticks who take AR-15s into Starbucks just because Starbucks didn’t trip all over themselves to appease anti-gunners. Remember how that turned out? They asked us not to carry in there anymore.

Walmart did the same, unsurprisingly.

And now some jackwagons are seeming to do everything in their power to push Walmart to declare itself a gun-free zone. If I didn’t know better, I’d swear anti-gunners were behind it.
So stop it, will you? The rest of us are sick of your crap.

Of course, open carrying merely announces to a bad guy with a gun who to liquidate first as a threat.  Then there are the gang-bangers around here.  They see that nice shiny Glock on your hip as something to steal.

This post is going to set off a few readers.  Let the fireworks begin. 


Anonymous said...

Jackwagons with $5 craptastic holsters.

Anonymous said...

I don’t understand why any non LEO would want to open carry. I conceal carry every day. No one I come in contact with on a daily basis needs to be aware that I’ve got a 38 special on me. I really don’t understand the logic of open carry in normal every day life.... And I’m as big of a 2A supporter as it gets. I am not saying I think open carry should be illegal, but I just don’t think it’s logical. I think the ones pushing this are people who want to start controversy just bc they can.

Anonymous said...

I'm with 10:24, except that I haven't been sufficiently motivated to obtain a concealed-carry permit. I'm OK just carrying in my car, my home, and my office.

I was at the gym one night a while back and a guy had a pistol he was showing off to another guy. I asked him if he was law enforcement and after initially looking at me like I should mind my own business, he replied that he was.

The fact is, I don't want to be around people with firearms unless I have reason to believe they are capable of handling them safely. You're right to bear arms does not supersede my right to not get shot by some dumbass who's fondling his gun like a 13-year-old who just discovered his pecker.

Anonymous said...

If you are going to open carry at least use a locking retention holster designed for your model of firearm and don't dress like an extra from Deliverance or a thug rap video. Appearance is in fact everything.

Anonymous said...

If I was the bad guy, the first one I'd shoot would be the one open carrying. I would much rather be the unknown factor in that equation, any advantage would be welcome. Plus, non-gun people just don't seem to be impressed by the guy with the drop-down holster browsing in housewares.

Anonymous said...

I am a retired LEO and carry concealed every day. The last thing I want to do is advertise to the bad guy that I am armed. I made it through 30+ years without getting shot and intend to do the same in the future. These idiots who walk into a store trying to look like Billy Bob Badass put me and everyone else in a position of being concerned as to what their intentions are. Yes, open carry is their right, but as several others have stated, it is not a requirement or even the intelligent thing to do. If you continue to act in such a foolish manner because it is your right, you can expect the property owner to exercise his rights and tell you that you can’t do so in his place of business. When this happens and you start ranting about your rights ( I have seen this happen) you may find yourself charged with a criminal act and incarcerated. A little common sense goes a long way, but with some people common sense is uncommon.

Anonymous said...

If you are going to open carry a rifle please make it something rare like a Daewoo K2 or something interesting like an FN FAL.
Nobody is impressed by your neutered Bass Pro M&P 15 with generic Magpul furniture, Cletus.

Anonymous said...

Good read.

The Tim McVeigh’s, Dylann Roof’s, etc. of the world, the poor souls with brains that never fully developed, were/are team players for the left; and just because they are too stupid to know it, doesn’t mean is isn’t so.

It’s the same with these attention seekers dressing up like Rambo then going out into public heavily armed; team players for the left, and too stupid to know it.

Anonymous said...

Ambush and adrenaline...The two A's that those open carrying seem not to comprehend.

If the " bad guy" has the drop on you and the element of surprise. You are dead. If there are open carriers in your church or wherever with you, they might have a chance to reduce the carnage of a would be mass shooter but it's just as likely they will miss their target because of adrenaline.

An adrenaline rush, which is a certainty, will kick in and it will likely affect your aim. Instead of the mass shooter, you might be the one who kills an innocent and the mass shooter drills in on YOU.

And, as any combat veteran will tell you, it's different when bullets are coming at you. You won't know until that first moment how your body will react to that surge of adrenaline no matter how much you trained.

When I see an open carry person ( not LEO ) in a restaurant or in a retail area or even in church, I know their politics and I know they've never been in combat. Only 10% of the military ever has, but you wouldn't know that talking to the other 90%.

If you want to protect your church or school, find places of concealment in the building where you can be ready to fire at your target and have the proper weapon. Think SWAT, not Wyatt Earp.

Your mass murderer has planned and may not be stupid. He will look to take out the teacher first just in case they volunteered to carry now ( thanks NRA for selling yet another dumb idea). He will look to take out threats first. Try putting several people at entrances so they can see a shooter come in.

There's a reason shooters are on the roof of The White House. Those inside(the Secret Service with hand guns) will have them drawn as they get the President to cover.

You need a strategic plan that is practiced. You need to know how to recognize a threat. You need to look at the building and try to find the weak spots and develop safety measures those who are unarmed can take.

We are cursed with those who think they know all they need to know about every damn thing. Carrying a gun may make you feel better, but feelings are your enemy in a life and death situation, a brain and knowing your best options is what will save your life and save you and others from panic.

Anonymous said...

Excellent read.

One more thing. The anti-gunners look forward to the occasion when an accidental discharge from some commando wanna-be kills someone buying a box of Cap'n Crunch so they can say "I told you so".

Anonymous said...

The worst is these militia types that train on the weekends out in the woods somewhere then walk their fat asses around walmart armed to the teeth. They act tough but I'm betting that if you took away their processed, packaged food they would be belly up by noon. It will typically be a husband/wife combo with poor kids trailing behind while their gun barrels swing erratically around slung over their shoulder. Atleast the pistol strapped to their knees do seem to be properly holstered but that rifle... not so sure. Maybe if you don't feel safe going into walmart to buy your honey buns you should send in grandma while you wait in the car?

Oh well maybe if the government ever does go mao zedong they will be useful to use as some type of chum against the commies while we attempt to formulate some type of plan.

Anonymous said...

To 9/22/19 11:15pm:

Mississippi changed the law a few years ago where you don’t need a conceal carry permit to carry a concealed firearm for the most part (aka constitutional carry). You can still get an “Enhanced Concealed Carry” permit, which still disallows carry in police stations, prisons, federal establishments via federal law. It basically allows you to carry on a college/university campus, polling places, and bars/bar areas where alcohol is primarily served. You still can’t carry on private businesses that properly posts that firearms are banned, but with an enhanced permit, you’d be subject to trespassing laws - whereas without a permit, you’d be in violation of the concealed carry law. You can still get a normal concealed carry permit, but really just for interstate reciprocity.

As far as the article goes, great read..and I couldn’t agree more. Although I don’t mind someone that has a pistol holstered on the hip (I personally don’t want anyone to know that I’m carrying) - I think that getting strapped up with an sks and hundreds of rounds of ammo for the sake of controversy will just (and has) backfire(d). Half the people out there that carry don’t train properly. I don’t make it to the range every month, but I try every other month. Negligent discharges happen all the time, and happen most often due to complacency. I encourage as many people (especially women) to conceal carry as long as they 1) know the law and 2) practice practice practice.

Joseph said...

As the resident "gun guy" amongst my friend group, I've often had folks ask my opinion of open carry. Like most of the folks above (ladies/gentlemen and scholars all, I imagine), I'm not a fan, if only from a tactical standpoint. However, I do agree that it should continue to be legal, if only for the fact that it keeps me from suddenly being in a state of law-breaking should my shirt or jacket ride up, temporarily revealing my (normally concealed) weapon.

However, I do think it's perfectly okay to socially shame people who engage in the "gun fetish" aspect of open carry. "Friends don't let friends tote AR's into Walmart" or something along those lines.

Anonymous said...

This is all about the idiots that have appointed themselves as "auditors". They call themselves first amendment auditors and push the limits as far as they can for the attention factor. Jackson police recently experienced an "auditor'.

Anonymous said...

When I was a young plaintiffs' attorney, a senior attorney told me that one of his law school professors (in the late 1970s) taught that "We will regulate ourselves, or someone will do it for us." In my opinion, to a large degree "tort reform" was our own damn fault. And so it may be with firearms. As a firearm enthusiast, I'm encouraged to read of people taking responsibility.

Anonymous said...

I recently read somewhere that "concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for showing off". I think that sums it up well.

Anonymous said...

Very pleased to see this many knowledgeable, reasonable comments.

Something for the open carry idiots in the original post subject - some nervous concealed carrier may mistake you for the next mass shooter and take you down as you parade your weapon through Walmart. You are of the same mindset as the sign-carrying, megaphone blasting idiots, screaming for your rights and the law of the land while disrespecting the rights and peace of others.

Anonymous said...

I’m 100%, totally supportive of 2A. I have NO use for anyone to the contrary. I agree that open carry should be legal. BUT:
——— I do not like to see open carry by either LEO or non. It makes one look like a cowboy.
——— I detest seeing COPs wearing t-shirts, blue jeans with open carry.
———LEO should be in department issue, clearly identifiable uniform.
———If the officer is uncover, surely he should be smart enough to cover his piece.
———I thought J. Edgar Hoover was correct on requiring all his agents to cover their weapons.
———LEO have degraded their professionalism in dressing as cowboys.
Come on people, use common sense.

Anonymous said...

9:31 AM
The worst is these militia types that train on the weekends out in the woods somewhere then walk their fat asses

Yeah those two stereotypes are mutually exclusive. I doubt there are many "fatass" actual Oathkeepers or Three Percenters. The weekend warrior training keeps them in shape.

Also, the last thing most serious paramilitary minded folks want is attention. The fatasses are probably the same type who commit hate hoaxes and are trying to provoke negative publicity.

Rick Ward said...

THIS IS PART 2 of my comment. Please read the first one first.

I want to move on with an argument against concealed carry (or in favor of open carry, whichever you prefer). The guy that kills you or robs you and lets you live won’t be 25 yards away yelling for you to throw him your wallet. Your neighbor in your face because your Great Dane shit in his yard and he tromped it all over the new carpet is as I said, in your face not on the other side of the yard. These bad guys know what they are going to do. You don’t. He has to make that move and you have to first recognize it as a threat to your life. So by the time you feel like it is time to draw, you are too late. You are dealing with recognition, reaction, drawing and then firing. You ain’t gonna beat him. Now let’s complicate that issue a little. It is winter time. You dress in layers with a shirt, sweater or sweat shirt and a coat. While you are fumbling through that cold weather package, you are bleeding profusely from at least two hot rounds in your chest.

Now I know there are a few hotshots out there who are competition shooters and quick draw McGraws who insist you can recognize a threat and quick draw, shooting the bad guy who only has to pull his trigger before your brain tells you to draw. If that is what you believe, either your instructor or your ego will likely get you killed. But just for argument's sake, let’s just say you really are Wyatt Earp, Doc Holiday and Billy the Kid all wrapped up in one. You got to be that good thru daily, if not hourly practice and repetition day in and day out. But that makes you the exception , not the rule. Few people have the time or desire to practice anywhere near that much. Don’t convince some other poor bastard that he can do that.

So my point is, there are some very valid reasons for open carrying aside from the fact that the writers of our 1890 state constitution never gave the Legislature the right to regulate or forbid open carry. In fact they thought concealed carriers were cowards. A Mississippi Supreme Court Justice even said so in 1853. Times change and attitudes change. But one fact remains. Our Constitution has not and probably never will. The more accessible your firearm is without any hindrance getting to it, the more likely most people will be able to defend their lives. The harder it is to get to and the longer it takes to get to it thru multiple layer movements and steps, the more likely you will die trying to save your own life.

Bad guys don’t open carry. Most have criminal records that make them fear going to jail just by being seen with a gun. Most robbers are hurting for money. They are not looking for a gunfight. They are not going to walk in a store to rob it, look over and see you open carrying and shoot you first. They are either going to abort their plan or delay it until you leave before carrying out. If you think I am wrong, prove it.

You can carry a sawed-off shotgun in a shoulder holster without a jacket as long as the barrel is more than 18 inches under MS law. By federal law you have to comply with barrel length and overall length. But in any case, it is legal as long as you stay within the length requirements. There is a new shotgun made by Remington and Mossberg with a 14 inch barrel you can buy at Academy Sports that the feds say is not a shotgun, but rather a "firearm." Go figure. But put it on and stroll thru your favorite mall. You are asking for trouble and displaying your stupidity while forcing the issue that you are legal and stupid making it tough for everybody else who has a brain.

TheClintonscantsuicideusall said...

I've had a CCP since the CL put my name in it's publication I'm guessing in their attempt to shame me out of getting the permit. Since becoming a LEO 20+ years ago, I carry concealed. No need to let anyone know I'm doing so as I don't want any challengers, and I'm always worried when I see an open carry that someone will do just that. My kids have taken my suggestion and not gone open carry, but have gone the CCP route.

Rick Ward said...


OK sports fans, here is another view from a retired military and civilian law enforcement officer, FBI National Academy graduate with a BS in Criminal Justice and Masters in Adult Education, who recently retired from training over 3,600 enhanced permit holders. My comments address more than one issue on the same subject so I will break them up. Be sure to read both. But first, not every law enforcement officer knows what they are talking about. Same is true for firearms instructors. You will know when someone knows what they are talking about. Judge me however you choose. I don't care. At 66, I am on the downhill slope.

I agree with the writer and we are our own worst enemy on many occasions. Stupid people do stupid things and if a guy’s judgment is no better than to carry a long gun into Walmart, go to the sporting goods counter, but ammo, load it and throw it over his shoulder, I don’t think his judgment is good enough to carry a gun. Yes I know technically it is legal but it ain’t smart. It makes it bad for all of us who use good judgment.

But I don’t agree that a bad guy sees you open carrying and you will be the first one taken out. I have seen that on TV when major bank robbers see a guard who might foil their plan and they shoot him first. But after 40 years of civilian and military police work, I have never seen that happen. I have asked my cop friends about that over the last 7 years of teaching thousands of enhanced permit holders, many with the same mentality. None could ever say they have personal knowledge of it happening. Has it happened? I am sure but how often that it would be considered a problem

So with that foundation laid, I will say that I can argue for or against open carry. Here is an example for you. Billy bad ass goes into a Waffle House, sits at the bar and stares at a guy at the end of the bar whose looks he just doesn’t like. He reaches over the bar, grabs a large butcher knife and charges the man. Wounds him with the knife but the guy falls to the floor drawing a 45 from under his jacket and kills numb nuts.

So let’s rewind that scenario with a slight change. This time the innocent man isn’t wearing a jacket and dildo begins his charge again but just before stabbing, he sees the 45 on the guy’s side, drops the knife and runs for his life! Why? Because he ain’t stupid and the appearance of that weapon created a deterrent. It saved his stupid life and kept an innocent man from being seriously wounded or facing legal expenses. Kept the cooks from having to clean up a lot of blood and the cops could finish their coffee at the local donut shop. Everybody is happy.

If you like history ask yourself why the US and the Soviet Union never went to war during the period referred to as The Cold War. It was because we both had big guns and rattled our sabers at each other. One was scared and the other was glad of it. It deterred a World War.

So let’s go back a little further when the Japanese wanted to attack the US mainland instead of Pearl Harbor. So why didn’t they? The story goes like this, Top Dog voiced his opinion that if they attack our mainland, there would be “a rifle behind every blade of grass.” That was because this country began with every able body man, picking up their arms, forming militias and helping the regular armed forces fight from every home and every field. The British wanted us to give them our guns. We gave them the bullets instead. Warriors study war. The Japanese warriors were deterred from taking us on inside our borders simply because history and our reputation for bearing arms served as a deterrent.

Anonymous said...

So many experts, so many know it alls, so many assholes. They're all the same person. Nothing quite like a firearms, military or LEO 'expert' with a computer keyboard.

Anonymous said...

Rick, I have to wonder how old you are and why you are lumping robbing a business and mass shootings and military invasions together as well as lumping mentally ill shooters with above average levels of function with dope addicts, with low level criminals who usually low functioning and military generals of the last century.

I agree that ordinary criminals look for the easiest and most vulnerable target. But, you seem to be comparing ordinary criminal with the psychopath or deranged. And, yes, the military doesn't like to go into Mosul house by house but that didn't deter the Marines, did it? And there's the bombing capability.

Apples and oranges arguments.

I would point out that criminal who isn't concerned with adding murder to his resume might see the open carry guard or owner and come back later prepared to take that person out. I would point out that those planning a mass shooting , planned ( Vegas) or know the patterns and positions and security ( or lack thereof) of their fellow employees in work place shootings.

You didn't say you've been in combat. If you had, you'd know that despite great training, some of your buddies, to their surprise froze...most not for long, but they froze. They were going through the jungle, on high alert with weapons ready and got ambushed. They know the fog and chaos, why don't you?

I think what you haven't studied enough is human behavior and psychology. It's always what we don't know that kills us...SWOT..of that we get strengths and opportunities ( though we overestimate them) but our egos make threats and weaknesses harder to acknowledge because we underestimate them.

I would remind you that half of our population has a below average intelligence and 15% are mentally ill on any given day. See the "Oathkeeper/Three Percenter" comment above? Those guys actually believe they can go up against drones and a modern military force just like ISIS believed when all they are doing is training to be domestic terrorists and I'd bet money most of them need a psychiatrist given how out of touch with reality they are and how paranoid. At best, they will govern rubble if there's anything left to govern. It's the 21st century, not the 20th, or 19th.

Rick Ward said...

I don't reply to anonymous assholes. If you don't have the balls to state your name and how you can be contacted you are hiding behind something. Maybe stupidity or being a coward. I don't talk to either. If any of you would like my responses drop the cloak and get out your dagger. I have.

Anonymous said...

Rick, by voluntarily placing yourself in the public sphere for the purpose of influencing public policy, you have made yourself a "public figure." This status has legal consequences, whether you are aware of them or not. My decision to remain a private citizen is neither stupid, nor cowardly. Please get over yourself.

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