Note: See Twitter feed @kingfish1935 for tweets from the meeting today.
A spirited discussion on user fees for the MSWIN system took place before an overflow audience at the regular board meeting of the Mississippi Wireless Communication Commission Thursday afternoon at the state fire academy auditorium. Police chiefs, Sheriffs, and other first responders clearly and loudly told the commission they were opposed to paying user fees for the MSWIN system. More than a few audience members said they could not afford to pay such fees and would quit using the statewide radio system if the commission ever charges user fees.
Audience comments start at 37:00.
The state built the MSWIN (Mississippi Wireless Integrated Network) after Katrina. The system is funded by a $300 million federal grant. The state paid matching funds of $57 million as well. to support the system. Needless to say, the MSWIN contract was the largest one ever awarded by the state. Motorola built the system for Mississippi. The state created the system after first responders were unable to communicate during the response to Hurricane Katrina because their radios and other equipment were incompatible with each other. The system allows users to communicate with each other regardless of where they are in Mississippi if they are using MSWIN. 32 state agencies, 331 local agencies, and other entities such as the National Guard and ambulance services use the system as well. The approximately 17,000 users currently pay no fees to use MSWIN.
MEMA Director Robert Latham said it costs nearly $13 million per year to operate and maintain the system. He said MWCC will run out of money in a few weeks and that the commission asked the legislature for a deficit appropriation. The legislature only appropriated $5.5 million for FY 2014. Mr. Latham and MDOT Enforcement Director Willie Huff both said they strongly opposed charging user fees and that the legislature knew very well it would cost $13 million per year to maintain the system when it created MSWIN. Board members repeatedly said the legislature should pay for such costs out of the general fund.
Sheriffs, police chiefs, fire chiefs, supervisors, aldermen, EOC directors, National Guard officers, power company executives, and other interested parties comprised the audience. No other media was present. They repeatedly told the commission they opposed charging any user fees. Common complaints were:
*"unfunded mandate"
*"If the state can pay us to house prisoners, it can pay for us to use MSWIN"
*"We can't afford to use MSWIN if we have to pay user fees."
*User fees are "derogatory" (Very common description used)
*"MSWIN is the best system in the country."
*Why does the state treat prisoners better than us?
*User fees are taxation without representation.
*"We were told when the system was created we would not have to pay any fees." This was a very common and heated complaint.
Monticello Mayor Dave Nicholls even suggested the state add another tax to phone bills to fund MSWIN. Mr. Huff said the user fees were ironic in that they would deter local agencies from using MSWIN when the system was created for local agencies to use. He also said "we don't charge user fees for inmates. We should take the money out of the general fund as we do for MDOC."
One little fact that was not discussed was the price of radios. Numerous officials from more than a few jurisdictions have told JJ over the last two years the price of radios has increased from $500 per radio to $2,000 to $5,000 per radio. Mr. Huff said there were six different vendors who sold equipment that could be used on the system. He did not discuss pricing.
Mr. Latham urged the audience to appear at the capitol on February 18 at 1:00 PM to make its position on user fees known to the legislature. He said "we have to push this over the goal line to secure funding and we need your support."
25 comments:
How do these folks propose that the systems operating cost be paid? The original proposal for constructing this system was to institute a user fee (local govts paying a proportionate cost) of maintaining the system. If they didn't have MSWIN, they would have to install their own towers and equipment, or rent space on other towers. This is nothing more than renting the space on MSWIN. But just as in everything else, looks like our first responders and their organizations think that everything should be paid for by everybody else.
The Legislature shorting this critical need makes no sense. Have they all forgotten our communication problems in the immediate wake of Katrina?
Kingfish, while there may be six different vendors do you know if they are all selling the same brand of radio or can radios by [n + 1] manufacturers be used on the system? Why hasn't Conway looked into the outrageous increases in price the per radio?
The original proposal for constructing this system was to institute a user fee (local govts paying a proportionate cost) of maintaining the system.
Have a link to substantiate?
A few things catch my attention
1-KF thanks for being there. Apparently no local 'news' organization thought this was important.
2-"Latham said it costs nearly $13 million per year to operate and maintain the system." I'd like to see the paperwork to back this up. Line item as to how they arrived at that number. Give it willingly OR Freedom of Information request. If there are roadblocks or excuses given as to why this info can't be supplied, then there's a red flag.
3-"...price of radios has increased from $500 per radio to $2,000 to $5,000 per radio.... six different vendors who sold equipment that could be used on the system". I want more data. Want to know which 6 vendors they are using and the costs of a radio from each vendor. Something is amiss here.
If I'm a legislator, quite frankly, I'd want to see the same things.
the reason costs have risen so much per radio is simple, the 500.00 radios are BUSINESS GRADE and the MSWIN compliant(actually APCO 25 Compliant) radios are PUBLIC SAFETY GRADE. This is like complaining about the price difference between a Ford Ranger and a F350, they are designed for similar things but the higher end model can do more and comes with a price. Not only are the radios designed to be more rugged and meet higher standards, there are "software licenses" involved in some of the tech in them. The advantages of the high end radios are too numerous to list here.
As far as the vendors go you have Motorola, EF Johnson, Tait, and 3 others I don't know off hand. Depending on which manufacturer you choose you get different capabilities and widely varying price ranges. But in comparison to those same manufacturers' previous generations of business vs PS grade radios the pricing tiers are still similar.
Now I will admit that to me the pricing is high, but after handling these radios I can tell you the quality is as well. When we have a 500.00 radio come in for repair more often than not it is junk if out of warranty. But IF one of the high end radios comes in at least it can be repaired reasonably.
8:12 Glad you are anom...
Call 911 and no one comes... You would sing a different song if you were on the other end. There was a Volunteer Fire Chief, VOLUNTEER, from Warren County at the meeting. They pay for everything themselves. And they don't get paid for responding either. They are 1st responders for FREE. If they didn't do it who would?? I bet you live in a nice comfy neighborhood that sits inside a municipality that provides a paid 1st responder service. Move to the county... and see what you get. These 1st responders leave their families at home at the dinner table with their children asking why they had to leave. so watch who you point the finger to when you make a comment about "looks like our first responders and their organizations think that everything should be paid for by everybody else"
I am nuff2say
To clear a few things up, local municipalities and counties already had a radio system before MSWIN.
Also on every court fine in municipal court the state assessments are actually higher than the actual fine. This is money collected by the municipality on traffic stops and the like that is then sent to the State of Mississippi.
So be careful when you say first responders expect everything to be given to them.
@11:15 AM, appreciate the information. Now Mr. Latham needs to provide all the details to KF. A $13 million pricetag deserves no less.
@2:17, well said.
I agree with previous response. The 13 million cost needs to be revealed.
Ck out the August 1, 2013 WCC minutes and you will see.
Renewed tower leases for 37 towers 2.44 million/yr. Outrageous. $5,500.00/mth/tower.
This is forever. 10 % increase every 5 yrs.
more to come.
As for the 13 million
Ck out WCC November 7, 2013 minutes.
Hired a technical consultant for 2 years @ $256,250.00/yr. $512,500.00
What a bargain.
more to come
Ditto the earlier response:
The users confirmed at the meeting that they saved money by switching to MSWIN. City of Madison saved $63,000.00/yr
$38,00/yr on Maintenance and $25,000/yr on T1 Lines.
I think Madison can afford to pay a fee of $63,000/yr
The State should not pick up the tab.
They could at least share the savings.
Greedy.
others to come.
Revenue idea
Lease the other towers that the WCC owns at same rate that the WCC pays.
Do the math.
$5,500/mth * 110 towers= $605,000/mth
That is $7,260,00/yr
We are well own our way to 13 million.
Not going to happen. The $5,500 rate is 2-3 times normal tower rental rates.
Revenue idea
Take the $$ of the court assessments mentioned earlier and use for MSWIN for the users that choose the system for primary.
Sounds like to me they are creating another agency.
More employees and benefits.
Getting bigger and bigger.
Yes 2:36 the small towns and big cities all had their own systems prior to MSWIN. And oftentimes they couldn't talk to each other.
8:28 The purpose of a statewide system was to solve the problems that were shown during Katrina - and the construction of a $200million system. But after construction, it has to be maintained.
Cities, counties have been paying to maintain their own systems - why not instead pay a portion of the maintenance of a statewide system that lets them all communicate with each other.
And my earlier comment about 'first responders' was really aimed at the government bodies that provide the first responders - the governments that provide the police, fire, sheriffs. Understand the difference with the unpaid 'rural' volunteer individuals and organizations.
As to a link on the original intent, don't have a link. Have original proposals, minutes, and legislation. Was there in the middle of it all. Didn't say the cities and counties were all in favor of it - many didn't want it. Wanted to keep their own systems and contractors (does Hinds County and Airwaves provide any idea of why?). But if the local governments are using the system, they should pay a proportionate share of the maintenance.
BTW - don't mistake my belief in the 'share the cost' concept with the idea that I think the wireless commission has been a good steward of the funds. Especially while Butch Brown's buttboy was in charge. Possibility of lots of graft and corruption in the procurement and various contracts.
Welcome to the Tater Tots!!!
Currently our county must maintain our old radio system and can only afford to provide the new radios for the MSWIN System to the sheriffs office, emergency management, a minimum number for the county public works department and one for each Volunteer Fire Department. We cannot afford to buy the them for all of the Public Works department, for all of the members of the volunteer fire departments or for the school buses. Therefore, we have no reduced costs or savings to apply to the new system. Most local governments are in the same situation. In addition, due to Federal narrow banding requirements, our old radios have drasticly reduced coverage leaving major gaps in our old system. We understand that there are costs for operating the statewide system, but a user fee won't cover it.
You mentioned Hinds County and Airwaves.
$70,000/mth service contract.
They have the money to share the cost with MSWIN.
Sign them up.
Hinds County's $840,000.00/yr alone would cover 15% of the cost of MSWIN
Revenue idea
One speaker recommended 911 fees. Have the WCC add to appropriations to keep a % of each county's 911 fees. based on population and phone lines.
The county boards have a blank check with the 911 fees. They are running the county rather than using on 911 services.
Per Hinds county.
Where is our State Auditor?
Tower lease is 2-3 times normal rate? Wonder where you got your figures and do you know what may be on the towers and at what elevation?
I agree the 2 year consultant cost for Q & A for a 200 + million dollar reverse loop broadband capacity microwave linked, 144+ Revision G rated tower sites, generator back-up, 17000 user devices, numerous agencies, LMR system covering 48,000 square miles implementation is low.
We could always use Airwaves as the standard for expert consultants and have an envious radio system like Hinds County.
Forgot to mention that the procurement and expenditures of the systems has been audited several times finding no crooks hiding in the bushes.
I will never understand couch potatos having an opinion that first responders are second class citizens because they deserve the best equipment to assit them in assisting the timely salvation of the couch potato when the couch doubles up around him or he chokes on a beer bottle top.
Enuff
Tower leases are 2-3 times higher than normal. Wonder where you got your figures? Do you know what is on the towers and the elevation?
I agree that the 2 year consultant cost for Q & A for a 200+million dollar, looped broadband capacity microwave linked, 144 Revision G generator backed-up tower sites, with 3 interconnected master sites, 17000 user device, 300 + agencies, LMR radio system covering 48,000 miles and almost 3 million people is low.
We could us the standard setting radio system consultants Airwaves and have a nationally envied radio system like Hinds County.
I dont understand why some folks demonize first responders, who risk their lives to respond to the need for assistance,for deserving the best equipment.
Many of you would not do what they do for the amount of money they receive but when you need them just what are the worth?
Enuff
@11:02/11:13
shelve the insults.
Its several million dollars and before any expense of that magnitude is made, you look at itemized expenses given by the person who quotes that price tag (Mr. Latham in this case).
Who the hell writes a $13 million check and DOESN'T ask for the itemization of costs?!
It has nothing to do with the value of the system, who it helps, etc. I'm looking at the first step you logically make when someone says--hey buddy, give me $13 million. the FIRST thing you do is say--well, can I see an exact itemization of the costs and how you got to that figure?
What is being asked for doesn't have a thing to do with WHO the system is for or HOW MUCH it can help folks. The FIRST thing you do is find out exactly where that money is going and what costs are associated.
On a side note, first responders are vital and nobody would ever say otherwise. But that is not the issue I am addressing.
I am addressing basic common first steps taken for an expenditure---how did you arrive at the number you are requesting.
If somebody has a problem with asking that question, then there is another problem.
If remember back in 2011 Hinds County sued a vendor for alleged bootlegging of their system.
See links below
Vendor settled 1.4 million, Why?
Sounds like That vendor is back to old tricks. Using MSWIN to their competitive advantage. Using State taxpayers infrastructure to make easy million $$$ upgrades to big wealthy counties system with the promise of a no Fee system.
Who wouldn't sign up for Free.
Even Hinds County charged $10/ month.
http://www.911dispatch.com/2011/08/22/county-motorola-reportedly-settle-unique-lawsuit/
http://kingfish1935.blogspot.com/2011/05/jj-files-motion-to-intervene-against.html
17,000 current users divided by $14,000,0000 = $823 per yer per radio on system now. This would cost our county $267,475 per year in users fees or increased taxes. This is close to or more than the total of the annual 911 funds collected in our county. This does not look sustainable.
This is why we have maintained our own system with interoperability to MSWIN.
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